sort of a kink poll...

[ratcreature]

I've been reading a slash story in which a heated argument between the couple (who are also friends) results in punch being thrown, and then the one punched actually finds the aggression a turn on and it goes on to sex. Somehow this combination of sex and violence doesn't work for me at all, not even in fiction, where I'm not averse to combinations of sex and violence.

Like, I can go along fine if the aggression is against some kind of third party, and one character is turned on by the other being violent, or they are turned on mutually, say if they are both in a barfight or even slaughter others. I can also go along with non-con that involves violence with the victim not being turned on, but I as a reader like it. But if the violence is between the couple (and they are supposed to like each other), uncontrolled violence segueing into sex (rather than say rough sex that is mutually agreed upon) is squicky for me, more so if the violence is not mutual (the latter would be more fighting leading to fucking in some kind of hate sex, which I also don't like, but it is not as bad as one sided violence).

Most often this is shown from the POV of the character the aggression is turned upon rather than the violent character being turned on by the escalation, i.e. A hits B, usually after some provocation, then B somehow finds that aggression/violence (or sometimes the loss of control) hot, and sex follows. I have to admit that I find this particular combination of sex and violence to be surprising as a kink, and it always startles me, but I see this every now and then, and I'm wondering whether it is something that many people like in sex scenes.

So, a poll:

Poll #1787 fictional sex & violence, when are they like hazelnuts and chocolate?

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 130

View Respondents

Which combinations of sex & violence do you like in fiction?

View Answers

none
15 (11.5%)

violence against outsiders is a turn-on for the characters, and followed by sex between them
76 (58.5%)

consensual, planned violence between partners (e.g. agreed upon rough sex, with bruising or hitting)
102 (78.5%)

unplanned, but mutual violence against each other (with both being equally aggressive/violent) then leads to sex
89 (68.5%)

unplanned, violent aggression (e.g. during an escalating argument) of character A against their partner B is a turn-on for B, and then leads to sex
34 (26.2%)

unplanned, violent aggression (e.g. during an escalating argument) of character A against their partner B is a turn-on for A, and then leads to sex
15 (11.5%)

violence with non-con sex
32 (24.6%)

Comments

[auburn]

I tried to be honest so I ticked two items, but even those are very iffy for me; it very much depends on story context.

[ratcreature]

Yeah, it's that way for me too, even with scenarios I like in principle it depends on how they are handled. But some of these never work for me.

I think what baffles me is that I would have thought that the violent argument leading to sex would be a common squick, because of the violence against each other, but I very rarely see this warned against. And I've come across this semi-frequently. So I've been wondering how common it is to find this an attractive scenario, this being punched during an argument and then fucked thing.

[auburn]

Well, I sure wouldn't like it in real life and I find it no more attractive in fiction. If a story contained that and I liked it, it would be despite that facet.

[ratcreature]

Yeah. I've been reading Star Trek Reboot fic though, and it seems quite common. First there is a bunch K/S fic where somehow Kirk is turned on by Spock choking him, and the one prompting this was a Kirk/McCoy fic with punching leading to sex, and this wasn't the first of this kind either.

[ilyena_sylph]

Okay, given that I was signed in with Megatron's journal when I first went to answer this, I think that says all that needs to be said.

Well, if you know Transformers, at least.

[auburn]

Wow, another reason to limit my Reboot reading to recommendations from trusted people. I've yet to ever find choking some anything but abusive.

[ratcreature]

Heh. I'm not really familiar with the Transformers, but through fandom osmosis I vaguely recall him as one of the evil robots, right?

[ilyena_sylph]

*grins* Oh, the Internet. Yeah, you've got it. He is definitely that.

Mr. "Peace Through Tyranny", himself.

His canonical relationship with his second in command, Starscream, involves a whole hell of a lot of violence towards 'Scream, and since most of the section of the fandom that believes the Transformers have sex are certain that the two of them are very, very involved...

Yeah.

I had a whole section here on the two of them, but I deleted it out of 'not everyone wants to hear you babble about the giant robots, Ilyena.

[katarik]

Note that the reason I did not click the 'unplanned, violent, one-sided aggression' buttons was not because I am necessarily squicked by it, or that it never gets me off, but because it only works with very *particular* couples, e.g. Starscream and Megatron. If I can believe that the pairing is already kinked that way, and that both parties are fully consenting even in weird and fucked-up ways, then I am okay. If I can't -- and it takes a lot to get me to believe that, because oh holy God, abuse is not fucking hot -- then I throw things at the wall.

*uses icon of unplanned, violent, one-sided aggression where it works, aka Megatron and Starscream*

[gnatkip]

I tickied only some of them, but really, everything is relative and I can see all of them being hot in certain contexts. (WHEN WILL THEY INVENT THE HALF-TICKY?!) The first two, violence against outsiders and rough sex, I find hot unvarnished and without explanation; just plain hot. But for the others, yeah, I need more exploration of the characters' feelings and motivations.

The scenario you described, "the one punched actually finds the aggression a turn on and it goes on to sex," would almost certainly trigger me if I came upon it unwarned. Especially if the route to sex was just that direct and unexamined. But on the other hand if it talked about the dynamics of partner abuse, about the surprise and sorrow and guilt and rage and inevitability and how all of that is tied up WITH sex... Well. That sounds like a story I should write, actually! ;)

[ratcreature]

I'm usually not into very twisted couples. My favorite characters are heroes almost without exception and while I sometimes read enemy pairings, that is usually only after there was some reformation on the enemy's part. Or complete non-con where the hero is hurt. So for these I find this kind of dynamic really jarring. I mean, I can see arguments devolve into punching with some with enough provocation, but then the next step won't be the one punched being turned on.

[katarik]

Yeah. It... it works for me, in some pairings, it really does, but *very, very few*, and the pairings it works for are fucked up. That's *why it works*, that these people aren't sane by standard human rules.

Or, you know, they're just kinked that way, but then I'm going to slap you with the 'safe ways to do BDSM, you're doing it wrong' pamphlet.

(cough, Winick, it is not hot when Dinah punches Ollie, cough)

[ratcreature]

It wasn't in any kind framed as abusive or further examined. And I've very rarely seen this warned against. To me it seems the authors who like this somehow don't even realize how dodgy this is for other readers or something. It's like the slash version of the het thing where a woman slaps a man, and then the guy things how spirited and fiery her temper is and how hot that is, only with the violence amped up a bit towards punching rather than slapping.

[lotesse]

Hrm. I tend to like violence as part of a hurt/comfort scenario - words or actions undertaken in a heated moment leads to hurt feelings or other Bad Things, the resultant shock of which brings the characters closer together in the end. Sexnviolence-y only in a metatextual sense, where the violence definitely adds an edge to the eventual sex, but not in a sense where the characters in-verse would see the sex as being connected to the violence. If that makes sense.

I did not check a ticky, because none of them were quite right. Unplanned violence yes, characters directly and consciously finding it sexy no. But me finding it (at least narratively) sexy? Pretty much yeah.

[ratcreature]

What I encounter does seem to be the slash version of the het thing where a woman slaps a man during an argument and then the man somehow thinks her temper is hot, or something like that. I don't really get that trope either. And in the slash version the violence is escalated to punches, also with the slaps it usually from a position that has a clear lack of power.

[katarik]

The het version of that sends me up the wall in sheer fury, because it is *so goddamn insulting*. The slash version is no better. And re: your comment to gnatkip, I am, uh, kind of baffled that Author apparently doesn't *get* how dodgy that setup is. Megatron and Starscream get me off. If I posted anything for them, I would warn for it like no tomorrow, because their entire interaction can be triggery as all get-out.

[gnatkip]

An apt comparision! And I do get that; I can see how it might be an expression of the "slash is fun because it's enacting our desires on apolitical bodies" thing. And I love that thing.

But yeah. This is a place I would really appreciate a heads up on the content.

[ratcreature]

Huh, I didn't consider the h/c aspects. I think because that is usually not my thing. I mean, I like characters getting hurt (not as interested in the comfort part), but I don't like the violence to originate within the partnership. For me that comes too close to my partner betrayal squick. But violence against characters in general being attractive to me as the reader wasn't really within the scope of the poll.

[ratcreature]

I usually come across this in pairings where you wouldn't really expect things like this. Like best friends. Just now I came upon it in a Kirk/McCoy fic. And it is one of the things that regularly throws me out of stories, but it is never mentioned in the headers. I mean, I don't particularly need warnings, because of any reactions I have to this, except being jarred, but like I said, I'm baffled that it seems so unremarkable to authors and readers.

[katarik]

I am making such weird, weird faces over here.

[ratcreature]

I don't really need warnings personally, because the worst it does to me is being jarred out of the story (and annoy me when I invested in reading and then this happens), but I'm still surprised that this trope seems so unremarkable that I encounter it semi-regularly, but very rarely see it mentioned in the headers.

[ratcreature]

So you usually don't come across this without warning in your fic reading? Unfortunately I haven't got a tag for this kind of trope in my bookmarks so I can't give numbers as backup (maybe I should start tagging for it...) but in my impression it is not that unusual.

[katarik]

It's not a trope I'm familiar with, no, and at the moment I am really, really grateful. But I also tend to ping for pairings that from the word go have a power differential built into them, and I guess if you start from a power differential you have to be a lot more careful about the messages you send?

[zing_och]

The only things I didn't tick were the one-sided violence ones. Even in a fantasy, that just doesn't turn me on. Though now that I think about it, there are stories like that I like - it's just been a very long time since I came across them. I started out in enemyslash, and it's rather common there. I didn't have a problem with it.

I think my reaction now is different because now I mostly read SGA and other buddyslash things, and there it's too close to domestic abuse to be comfortable.

[ratcreature]

I don't read much enemyslash, but I can see the scenario being less jarring there. In the ones I come across it sometimes seems as if the author doesn't really see it as violence at all. Like I mentioned above, the punching seems to be the slash version of the slapping you see sometimes happen in het romance, where some enraged woman slaps a guy who is then (often somewhat condescendingly) turned on by how temperamental and spirited she is, rather than feeling threatened by the violence.