ratcreature | fannish etiquette question

Yeah, I think the new fannish normal is definitely heading that way; you're probably behind. I don't really know how I feel about it, but I think once you put something on the internet, no matter where you put it on the internet, you've lost control over it. Hazards of the media, etc.

In terms of etiquette, if you see your stuff reblogged when you've stated that it shouldn't be, I'd guess just contacting and requesting the person to take it down is pretty much all you can do.

My problem is mostly that I don't want to come across as some petty jerk or anything like that, being exceptionally prissy about using my art, if indeed fandom has now universally shifted to making Tumblr-ing (? does some verb similar to tweeting for twitter exist?). I mean, the instance I came across did credit and link back. *is conflict shy* But people don't seem to do this to fanfic for example, just repost in a more convenient format for them without permission.

It doesn't irk me nearly as much when this happens to my images randomly rather than from within the same corner of fandom where I am. And I mean, I even enable this dA embed thingy which I think allows people to embed my picture anywhere they like as preview without uploading it to their own space.

I actually did see some one (tumbling? LOL) fanfic once! I don't remember where/what/who though, but it was strange. I'm conflict-shy, too; I totally get that. Anyway, I don't know if it's a universal shift, but it's definitely some sort of shift... it'll be interesting to see what happens, I think. Might be good to web-address your art so people can at least hunt you down if they're wondering what else you've done. I wouldn't know what address to put, though... heh.

Didn't know dA had a thing like that! Now I'm curious.

You can enable an embed that people can c&p. That embeds a small preview (think about the size of the unenlarged dA preview) at least for non-mature images, and then people can click that. You often see it when people post their dA art to their LJ, because dA doesn't allow direct hotlinking afaik. There are also Twitter and Facebook buttons and what not.

Most of my art is signed RatCreature (with only a few scribbles signed with RC) and when you google that (with or without space) my domain ratcreature.net where you can find my art is the first result (before Bone comic-related pages even that inspired my pseud), so unless someone cuts my signature out (that has happened to me only once), nobody should have any trouble tracking me down. Also in my more recent art try to remember to embed my copyright info and web address in the JPEG meta info that gets stored with an image but sometimes I forget and (in older it is still set to the default "created with GIMP" or something like that because I didn't know function), but maybe a visible web address wouldn't be bad idea. Though I hate watermarking images.

The tumblrs I've seen that posted fanart all turned out to be hotlinking the images. Tumblr confuses me.

Huh. The one I've seen all have the stuff uploaded to Tumblr, like a Tim/Steph doodle I did is now also here:
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lap5j8vdJs1qcv9zpo1_400.jpg
and it didn't end up there via my own Tumblr, which I haven't used since I tried it with a single rat pic in 2007.

It does seem like maybe it's turning into the new normal. I don't know how you would go about trying to stop it; it seems unstoppable. Tumblr is like, a whole different beast, isn't it?

Yeah. Like I said in a comment above, I don't want to come across as exceptionally prissy about using my art, and this Tumblr credited and linked back (that's how I noticed in the first place), so I don't want to be a jerk to people. But otoh I'd still rather get my own traffic and control picture distribution. I mean, as far as you can with people just "finding" pictures through google, but I mean this is from within the same corner of fandom I'm in. And it seems only fanart is "fair game", not fanfic for example.

And it seems only fanart is "fair game", not fanfic for example

I wonder why that is. Because more people write fanfiction, and thus there's a broader understanding/empathy for the creator's rights to it? Because fanfiction is more susceptible to plagiarism (by way of the global S&R of character names)? Because we've had more time to struggle with it, since only in the last five or eight years has it become really easy for people to host images?

I also wonder about the fannish socialization of the people who are reposting the art: are they people embedded in a fannish community with a developed protocol for respecting creators' interests? Do they come from a fannish community that just doesn't think about fanart as being an individual's personal creation? Or are they entirely unfamiliar with fannish social norms in general, and think the art is magically produced by rats on the internet and no one could possibly have an issue with their reproduction of it in a form they prefer?

Hmmm.

Well, I don't have representative sample, probably because I'm not all that prolific, posting fanart only rarely, and also art isn't that popular or of great quality (I mean, there's worse, but I'm not one of the high profile artists with 3000+ LJ followers or 100000+ dA page views), so I'm not reposted all over the place as some artists, just every now and then I notice because I vanity google and look at who linked to me and such.

But in the instance that kicked off this post, the Tumblr owner also has an LJ and I recognized the pseud vaguely, not from flist/dwircle directly, but someone whom I've seen around in comic comms every now and then.

I think in part is that in fandom there is a lot of respect for crediting text (like when someone puts a bunch of quotes in their fanfic without proper citation you get wailing and gnashing about plagiarism right away, even if it's just some lines), but as in online culture at large there is almost no respect for images, and no culture of proper image sourcing in casual/non-professional contexts. Images are "found" on google and used for macros with funny texts without giving the photo source, icons are made and only the icon maker is credited not the original photographer and artist (that's so bad that even if you draw your icons yourself people automatically assume it is not your art but that you've taken it from somewhere, as I've encounter often with my icons), and so on. So it is reinforced over and over that you have to be really careful with text but images are okay to grab.

And in part it's convenience, that when people want to show someone else a cool fanfic they've read they rec/link the fic, and it's tedious to c&p pages and pages of text, but when they want to show a cool image they just show the image directly, and now you don't have to hotlink, but tumblr and the other current photo hosts allow all that with one click.

Many of the tumblrs I frequent (though they aren't fannish) have notes up saying that if you're the artist, let them know and they'll attribute the source. So I really don't think there's anything wrong with asking for attribution. Otherwise, I suggest you start watermarking everything you post.

The attribution isn't the problem here. The owner properly credited me and linked back (otherwise I'd never noticed). But they uploaded my picture to their own Tumblr, so now for example if I wanted to remove my fanart I couldn't because it is uploaded in places I don't control. Like when people post collections of their favorite fanfics in their own webspace with proper attribution, fandom still thinks that is not okay but archiving without permission.

Ah, I see. Yeah, no, I think fandom is moving in that direction. There's still no harm in asking, I don't think you're going to be taken as uptight as long as you're polite, but I suspect it's going to be more and more frequent. I'm not sure, I'm not really one for fanart myself.

I probably won't complain. It's just awkward, and they credited, and in practice I have not set up my website in a way so that I could effectively remove my art again, because I allow robot indexing and archiving, so for example my art is also on the WayBackMachine and so on. Even though in principle I much rather have people link to my site or embed a preview from my dA account, so that I notice views and traffic, and maybe get comments sometimes.

It's more that I'd really prefer fandom to be as considerate of artists as of authors and think this Tumblr thing and art reposting through, before it just becomes established.

It's more that I'd really prefer fandom to be as considerate of artists as of authors and think this Tumblr thing and art reposting through, before it just becomes established.

Seriously. Imagine the outcry if people reposted other people's fic, even credited with a link back. Bah, I don't have to imagine it; the few times I've seen it happen it did not go down well.

Yeah, that's what gets me most. Everyone is expected to be really careful with every snippet of text and giving all sources or it's "plagiarism" and of course full archiving is a big no-no, but with images all is fair game.

In my more cynical moments I think especially with the sourcing (which at least this Tumblr did, which isn't even the norm, I would have never noticed if it hadn't) it's because you can search for text, but the chances to find out where an image came from if it isn't sourced is pretty much nil.

Edited 2010-10-25 21:06 (UTC)

Imagine someone 'reblogs' one of your pictures on tumblr, and you in turn 'reblog' one of their fic on LJ. 'Cuz you like it just that much. Would seem only fair, right? And yet it sounds like a surefire case for fandom_wank.

Yeah, no, I think fandom is moving in that direction.

Huh. There's an unpleasant thought. I never before thought about locking my art, but should I notice strangers uploading my art elsewhere, I might actually consider it.

I've had that happen to me pretty consistently, albeit at a low level, ever since I first started posting art, despite not being prolific or popular. Probably because I allow google searches of my website.

Like, I've had my second comic fanart ever reposted on another LJ and mocked for its slashy subjects, had my HP art reposted on a HP fan message board, found out from someone on my flist that someone else had used one of my slashy Batman sketches for some weird contest thing on a Warren Ellis' site (that person pasted my art into something else, and also removed my sig, so maybe that was "transformative")...

But I fear if Tumblr gets more and more popular and image "reblogging" becomes the norm it will happen all the time.

Like, I've had my second comic fanart ever reposted on another LJ and mocked for its slashy subjects, had my HP art reposted on a HP fan message board, found out from someone on my flist that someone else had used one of my slashy Batman sketches for some weird contest thing on a Warren Ellis' site (that person pasted my art into something else, and also removed my sig, so maybe that was "transformative")...

Weird, that's really a lot. I've been trying to think of occasions when it happened to me but the only time I noticed someone reposting my art in full was when someone translated my x-files comic into Russion. And that I had no problem with... since by translating it they added something new to it, I guess, and didn't take away from my own reader base. And they linked and credited.

I think it's in part because while it's somewhat easy to repost part of a fic you like, it's hard to repost just part of a piece of artwork.

Yeah, that might be a part of it. It's no excuse though. Especially since it's not that hard to figure out how to modify a picture, and there are plenty of people in fandom who would explain it to those who ask.

Also, it's not as if artist weren't often providing thumbnails themselves, but you don't see those "reblogged" with a link to the original, it's the whole image that gets taken. I have 120x120 thumbnails on my website, and provide embedding on dA, so in either place someone could find a way to reblog the equivalent of a fic quote without any image editing whatsoever. But that's not what happens.

but I do have a notice that I don't want my art distributed without permission, because I'd rather like traffic to come to my site than some random Tumblr or other site.

Wow, yes. I don't have a note in that vein but I always assumed that that goes without saying. Is that not basic netiquette? Not to mention copyright issues... reposting something in its entirety is entirely different than riffing off it by creating derivative art, or linking by posting a preview thumb at the most. (And personally I would even ask permission for posting a thumb, I guess, out of politeness.)

If they post the artwork wholly they're redirecting our viewership to their sites. Not cool. So I really hope that's not the norm.

I really hope this won't become established, but there seems less and less hope for that. Fandom has never quite cared about art attribution as much as about fic attribution, but with these image reposting blogs proliferating this the volume goes up.

I'm adding a note to my userinfo as we speak. *grmbl*

Not that a note helps any. My website (where the Tumblr linked back) says at the bottom of every single page "All artwork, graphics and photos on these pages are © Rat Creature, except where otherwise noted. Don't copy or distribute them without my permission. You may download or print them for personal, non-profit use only."

I think part of the reason it occurs is because of the way Tumblr tools are implemented - the "Share on Tumblr" bookmark has six tabs, one of which is labeled "Photo," and when one shares a photo this way on Tumblr, it is automatically uploaded to Tumblr (and shrunk if applicable). You can use the "Text" tab and code your own image tags if you want to hotlink a photo/not upload said photo to Tumblr, but there are limitations in the "Text" tab that are not present in the "Photo" tab (a key one being that you have to code your own HTML), on top of it not being the intuitive place to go to Tumblr a photo.

It is also a major PITA to actually get a photo deleted off Tumblr, IME. I decided to remove a specific photo at one point. Deleted the post, but the photo remained on Tumblr's servers, and I eventually had to email Tumblr Support to get the photo removed from their server. I don't know if this is still the process to get a photo removed, as this was several years ago.

As for why it doesn't seem to happen wholesale with fic, I wonder if it's because it's much easier as a Tumblr "curator" to select a fic "excerpt" for sharing (something of a length that would fall within the realm of fair use, and something that can be a more effective "teaser" than an art thumbnail) than it is to do a similar thing for an image. To make an image thumbnail, for example, one has to have access to an image program, as well as knowledge enough of how to make that image program work. In addition to the knowledge, it takes a lot more time to download an image, create a thumbnail of it, and then re-upload it somewhere - and with the Tumblr workflow thrown into the mix? Even less feasible. Text, on the other hand, is a very easy copy-and-paste away.

Edited (clarifying a couple of sentences) 2010-10-28 04:21 (UTC)

I get that ease of use influences things, but someone still decides to just upload another fan's whole art to their own blog rather than linking it. It's not like Tumblr makes them do it.

Having recently gotten into tumblr myself I have been wondering how all these fanartists feel about being posted without attribution. It's not that hard to at least add a link and some attributing text and a lot of people don't even bother with that. I personally don't HUGELY mind the idea of someone putting my art in a tumblr post if they do add a link and attribution, but I can see why you might.

That said tumblr is a pretty good way to spread art if you post it yourself and don't mind it being out of your hands once you post. That way people can see that you posted it first and you can put a link to your site on your userinfo as well as each post, plus you get notified when people "like" it. Though if you do that and edit the post none of the reblogged posts will show the edit, and obviously this does nothing to stop people tumblering your art themselves nor should you be forced to do it if you don't want.

The culture of not attributing images online is pretty entrenched, isn't it? I notice it within art as well, lots of fanart which is clearly based on photos or using textures has no references given. I once had someone crop a photo of me to use the slogan on my shirt (that I had designed) as an icon.

The way images are treated really ticks me off. You should be more careful with images since you can't search for them easily like you can with text to find where they came from. And yet they just get grabbed all over the place in ways that would never be tolerated with fanfic in fandom.

Absolutely. There have been so many times I've fallen in love with an image and have wanted to tell the person who made it, but there's no way to find out who they are.

Yes, it is really inconvenient for viewers too, not just sucky for artists. In most of my pictures my sig is rather prominent, but for example in my fake HP bestiary pages the sig would have distracted from the effect, so those are unsigned. Though if I'm ever continuing that series, I'd probably watermark the bottom with my web address, even though I dislike watermarks.

I used to tend to not bother signing my work, I'm definitely going to more effort to remember now (thankfully "sqbr" is a pretty unique identifier) Of course not many viewers are going to go to the effort of typing in an address or googling even when they have the oppurtunity :/

It seems to be the norm on Tumblr, which is annoying when there is no credit. How can I find the original artist to see more of zis art if there is no credit?

Yeah, without credit is even worse, but frankly I dislike it even with credit. It used to be understood (at least in my corner of fandom) that you don't just upload some other fan's stuff to your own space, where they have no control over it, without bothering for any permission. I don't like this shift at all.

Oh, sorry, I don't mean it is OK even when credited. It has been knocked into me early that you need to ask for permission to archive stuff, and I can't understand why people think fanart is the exception.

Tumblr is about reblogging. That's why it makes it easy to keep the trail of reblogs and to assign click through links to images so that it's easy to get back to the original webpage of image or whatever.

It may be that Tumblr is not the blogging platform for you?

I did not put my fanart on Tumblr to begin with. I haven't used Tumblr since 2007 when I uploaded a single rat photograph. Someone else grabbed my fanart from my website, that has a big note not to distribute my art, and put it on their Tumblr.

Edited (missing word) 2010-11-04 22:24 (UTC)

Aargh. I apologise for my ignorant comment. I missed the point by several miles.

It's okay. I noticed that I didn't exactly say in my post that I did not mean "reblog" in the sense of one Tumblr to another, but in the genral sense that I of course blog my own art in a way, and then someone put it on their Tumblr.

I actually would mind it less if it was within such a system and I could still see the traffic somehow and such. I mean, I allow the embedding thing that deviantArt has so that others can repost a preview that then links to my page.

Many tumblrs can and do include the source/artist link. Is that a compromise?

The post I noticed did that, but that doesn't help much. I mean, my picture is now archived elsewhere, where I have no control over it. I couldn't even pull my art if I wanted to, because it is now on this person's Tumblr. I've never seen something like this done to fanfic without protests, unless it was posted with a header allowing universal archiving.

ETA: Also, on my dA I've allowed that embedding function which allows people to embed a preview of my art with that dA embed thingy, so they can show my art in their place while leaving control over the image and option to delete with me.

Edited 2010-10-25 16:21 (UTC)

Most people that have a tumlbr will gladly remove it if you ask--most of us have that stipulation listed on our homepages. As far as if it's already been reblogged, unfortunately, thats just one of the breaks of posting stuff on the internet.

I can tell you, though, that lots of tumblr followers do click through to the source site if they like what they see. I did a web comic w/ a friend and we hosted it on her site and drew in 150 unique IP hits in five days--a lot of that was due to tumblr reblogs. that was the main reason I eventually started a tumblr of my own!

I probably won't complain. It's just awkward, and they credited, and in practice I have not set up my website in a way so that I could effectively remove my art from the net again anyway, because I allow robot indexing and archiving, so for example my art is also on the WayBackMachine and so on. So I'm okay with a certain loss of control for exposure.

However, on the bottom of every single page on my website there is already is a big box at the bottom saying that I do not allow distribution without permission of my art. This Tumblr linked to a page with this notice and just ignored it. Fans would not do this to fanfic, and other fans would not consider it okay. I have *seen* the outrage when some hapless newbie fan puts up all their favorite stories onto their own website (all properly credited so no plagiarism). I'd really prefer fandom to be as considerate of artists as of authors and think this Tumblr thing and art reposting through.

I get the feeling that's just the way things are going. :/

What's your Tumblr? (I promise not to reblog you?)

I don't use Tumblr. I have an account I got in 2007 that I posted one rat picture to, and then I was confused about the purpose and nobody I knew was using it, so I gave it up. My stuff got tumblred(?) from my website.

I have a fanart wordpress blog, and they also have a reblog feature (recently introduced), but my posts there only have thumbnail previews and links, so if someone reblogged those in the WP way that would still get me hits on my own website. I also have a dA with preview embedding enabled, so people who want to can put a dA preview in any of their posts without them uploading my pictures anywhere. All my accounts (including the defunct Tumblr) are under "ratcreature".

fannish etiquette question

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here via metafandom, and i have thoughts!

Re: here via metafandom, and i have thoughts!

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