commenting cultures

[ratcreature]

The discussions of the pros and cons of "kudos" on AO3 reminded me that I've wanted to post about whether others found the comment culture and discussions about them (and long critiques as well as the favorite and collection buttons) on deviantArt even more neurotic and fraught than on the typical fan archive/forum or fannishly used LJ/DW.

I mean, whenever I see discussions over this in posts on dA it's likely to be some sort of screed how these days people were only doing "fav and run" instead of how it supposedly was in some mythical ancient time when everybody wrote lengthy comments to help artists improve. (For an example, see this recent post and the comments on it, as well as the second part more about the group feature.)

First, seriously, what is it with that expression, as if it was a bad thing akin to a "hit and run" to bookmark an artwork as a favorite and give it more exposure through people browsing the favorites of artists they like to find new stuff? I know I find most art on dA like that, and more recently also through groups (that I also find by accident when an artwork I like has a group button), since neither the search function nor the categories are up to cope with the sheer number of works.

And second, all this whining about how the quality of the comments sucks and nobody was posting long comments (anymore -- it's always combined with nostalgic projections, which I can't verify, since I have used dA for a bit over two years), actually makes me even less likely to comment on the site, even though I can't quite believe the majority of users would really expect the average comment to be some sort of indepth analysis or review, rather than a quick "Awesome! I like the costume." or "Cool how the fur turned out." or something like that.

I mean, I freely admit that on dA my interaction is mostly of the "adding as favorite" type, because to me it seems a "win-win". I get a bookmark of great art I liked for myself with one click, and the artist gets a quick notification that I added it as favorite, and potentially more viewers if people who landed in my gallery also take a look at what art I liked. And that with none of the social awkwardness of commenting on strangers.

As for the complaint that even comments that are made are of the "worthless" kind, I'm not about to offer unwanted technical advice to random strangers, not to mention that more often than not I'm not actually more technically versed or knowledgeable etc. than the poster, or in the habit of doing technical art reviews, so what could I even say in a comment that would satisfy these demands? For the record, personally I'm happy to get fav'ed, and like short comments. Longer ones would be awesome of course, but I don't expect them as the norm.

Perhaps it is the huge range of users, from professional artists with many followers to the occasional inept doodle poster showing a sketch to some friends, that makes the popularity issues even more central on dA than on fanfic archives, because the displayed stats (number of views, downloads, favorites, and comments) aren't that different from fanfic archives like the AO3 that display hits, comments, and bookmarks.

Comments

[auroraprimavera]

Interestingly enough, I have a friend who's been following how her works are affected on AO3 in regards to kudos vs. comments. I'd have to ask her for more detail, but from what I gather, she gets a more proportional amount of kudos to traffic than with comments.

I know that on dA I do things like that as well - just Fave and move on. But then, on dA the comments tend to be rather - meh most of the time and I hate being lumped with some of them. >_>

[ratcreature]

I don't get that many comments on dA, so I'm not sure how things correlate. The work of mine that so far got fav'ed most often (ironically that was a tablet experiment where I traced a gay wallpaper, linked in my notes, so not like I was hiding that, and put them in superhero costumes) has 8 comments (not counting my replies), 131 favs, and 2,947 views. Whereas a typical example from my gallery, like say my yuletart fanart from 2008 that I uploaded January 2009, has been on the site for two years, and has gotten four comments (not counting my replies), seven favs, and 446 views. Most of my stuff has gotten less than ten comments and less than a dozen favs, while having maybe a couple of hundred views.

As for the comment content, I find them varied, mostly short squee, and not too different from LJ/DW comments from strangers, except that dA seems to also have a younger crowd of teenagers like ff.net mixed in. Which I don't mind, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that the site skews younger. At least that's my impression.

[auroraprimavera]

Hm, interesting. I dunno, I tend to just be all COMMENTS \o/ when someone comments on anything of mine. So, I dunno.

And yeah, I think that's what gets me most about comments on dA. I'm used to getting comments here and on LJ that are coherent (with a few exceptions that make me kind of cringe) and sound like the person at least knows how to write decently. On dA (on an old, deleted account) I got stuff that was like, wot? I dunno. I mostly just lurk on dA and use it for resources now a days.

[glockgal.livejournal.com]

I know I use DA for completely different reasons than I do LJ, because I really like the whole favourite thing (both to use and to receive). But then, I guess it's because I prefer to get my feedback from LJ?

Also, the etiquette on DA confuses me since I don't really see the point of thanking people for watching or fave-ing. If people are so het up for getting feedback, maybe the protocol should change so people have more TIME to give feedback instead of using that time to thank people for the watch?

Blah aaanyway. I think it would be kinda neat for LJ to start up a kudoe or Like of fave sort of system. Hm!

[ratcreature]

Yeah, I don't thank for favs/watch either, because that's just overkill. And it's my impression that thankfully this convention seems to become less common, maybe because of the collections and the groups, that are also all kind of like the bookmark galleries, so favs of various kinds have become more common? In any case, I noticed that when I fav something now, it happens less often that someone comments in response than say two years ago when I first got an account on dA, which is fine with me, because I'm the same.

On DW I've seen a suggestion for a "like" button which I suppose would be like kudos in a way. What I like about the dA fav button is that it combines the appreciation with the bookmarking/gallery aspect, so both sides get something out of it, in a way, making it really convenient.

Personally I use dA mostly like a neat gallery, both for displaying mine, and for aggregating art I like, and because of that I'm less about the comments there, and also not "chatty", like I don't use the journal function there (case in point that I posted this here rather than on dA even though it is about dA), and only rarely read the news and editorials and stuff. I also use the new groups mostly for their galleries, less for social stuff.

And IMO that is a valid way to use the site, even while others use it as their primary social network maybe. In any case because of that I'm annoyed at all this griping about the comments, and this moaning about how it is supposed to be a "community" (serious, the whole thing just one?! it has millions of users, that is like saying all of LJ or facebook is a community), which to me seems like a criticism of those users like me who see dA as display galleries with social extras. And I'm also annoyed when the interface tries to foist this view on me, like this nagging when you fav "don't forget to comment", which doesn't make me any more likely to comment.

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

I'm on dA primarily to collect favorites galleries in various fan universes. I comment sometimes, usually on art for smaller fandoms, but honestly, I'm not an artist. I can say when I think something looks cool, but that's about it. I comment much more frequently on LJ because I am a writer and can offer better con crit and recognize tropes and diction choices.

[ratcreature]

Yeah, I can understand that. I use it as gallery collection, my own and for art I like, too, and I think that's a good use of the site too. But in many of the dA forums (like posts and such),this usage seems to be treated like leechers or something. I find that aggravating.

As for the writers, apparently some people use dA to publish fiction too, which I find completely baffling, because to put it mildly, the interface is not very good for that. Or for reading things. But I see fic all the time. I don't get it. Maybe if you have text to go with your illustration I can see why some people would want to have all in one place, but I also see people post there who have only text, and don't do visual art, and I'm like "whyyyy???" and sort of want to shake them to pick good tools to find an audience.

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that either. I've got a link to my LJ on my page, because that's where I publish my writing. I see no point in duplicating my efforts on a site that's not even designed for it.