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HP archives

Sometimes I really yearn for the more or less centralized fandom infrastructure like I was used to in The Sentinel.

I'm reading the results for a poll about HP fic archives and recs, and there was a question on which archives one regularly visits, including also an open option for people to fill in archives not listed.

I hadn't even heard of (let alone visited) many of the archives people mentioned, and ended up googling a whole bunch. And okay, it's understandable that I didn't know all of them as most are pairing specific, but not for my favorite pairings. And I know of a bunch of other archives that didn't appear in that poll too, and when I looked up the ones I didn't know, I found yet more archives. Some rather small, others quite large. I get that HP is really, really huge, and that specialized archives may be practical for fans with strong pairing preferences, and yet -- I'm not an OTP person in HP, I have read and enjoyed stories with most of those pairings, and some I even read quite frequently, but I'm not even aware of all the archives.

Surely there don't need to be *four* (or maybe more) Harry/Ginny archives? I'm not much into pure H/G romance stories, but if it's an interesting action/adventure story that's also a H/G romance for example, I like that pairing fine, certainly more than some others. And yet I knew of only one of those archives appearing in the poll (PhoenixSong), and otherwise mainly read H/G stories at The Sugar Quill and Fiction Alley. Now I know that there are several other Harry/Ginny archives, namely Sink Into Your Eyes (which apparently is so widely known that the poll author only listed it with its cryptic acronym SIYE in the poll), Written with a Quill, Sealed with a Kiss (which still seems quite new?), Simply Undeniable (also for Ron/Hermione), and The Broom Cupboard (that one seems to be a message board rather than an archive, though people listed it as the latter).

Personally I think that kind of thing, where you have half a dozen or more archives for a single pairing, is really inconvenient. What is wrong with having larger archives with good search functions? I get that huge archives in fandoms like HP are a lot of work, and that hosting costs are probably a factor too, but that's why archives can be group managed, no? Why do people found the fifth Harry/Ginny archive or the fourth Snape/Hermione archive? I just don't get it. It's not like more archives equals reaching more readers, at least for me it's rather the opposite, I'm not likely to regularly check multiple archives, much less multiple archives for a single pairing.

Other HP archives I didn't know about: Checkmated (for Ron/Hermione), Magical Theory and Fire and Ice (both for Draco/Ginny), Dark Sarcasm and Whispers (both for Snape/Hermione, whereas I only knew of Ashwinder for that pairing), Apparition Point (I couldn't figure out if that's in any way specific by browsing the site briefly), Portkey (Harry/Hermione), The Quidditch Pitch (seems to be for romance, but not pairing specific, and accepts het, slash and threesomes), Hand Me My Robes (seems for explicit het, not pairing specific), Malfoy Slash Archive (I only knew of the Malfoy Family Archive), Thin Line (for Snape/Sirius), Godric's Hat (for gen), and the list goes actually on for a bit more... also, there's a Snape MPreg archive?!

Unrelated to the sheer number of archives, am I the only one annoyed that (some) HP archives tend to name their categories in fairly cryptic ways? So that they have to include an explanation sheet what those categories are?

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I'm writing my undergrad thesis on archiving and fandom and this whole thing is fascinating from an academic point of view. I wonder if it's a side effect of the dissemination of fandom - we're larger and more spread out and there's a hell of a lot of people who have never been in fandom before and so don't have the fannish memory of centralised archives etc. There's also. hrm, this is probably just myself, but there's also a lack of..information retrival in fandom now, I think. Tagging helps but tagging is still a new social retrival tool and people just don't think to search anymore, expecting it to appear (or they go and make one so it appears.)

(of course, as a fan and a ex-archivist, the multiple archive thing drives me *nuts*)

But surely if you're a Harry/Ginny fan you read HG before you start an archive, and thus it's really unlikely that you're not aware of existing archives. I mean, I'm not even really active in HP communities and it didn't take any effort to find these archives. I mean okay, if the first House Elf Incest special interest archive is super-sekrit and hidden, someone might create the second House Elf Incest archive without being aware of the first, but IMO if you're not into the fandom enough to know how to navigate the existing infrastructure somewhat, you probably shouldn't run an archive in the first place, because it's unlikely to turn out well managed, and well frequented/received if the admins are clueless and not rooted in the fandom, or at least in the corner of fandom the archive caters to.

I used to run a fanfic archive for HP. (It's still up, but the upload/search stuff has been broken for ages, and I never fixed it due to lack of time.)

I started it out of aggravation at the lack of a good, central, basic archive like Sentinel had. I wish I had the time to sit down and figure out what broke, but I don't, and so it languishes.

Sigh.

Oh yeah, I remember that kiln-something, was it? And it was for finished stories only, iirc.

On some level I get the desire to have pairing specific archives, but that there are several archives for every popular pairing drives me nuts. I mean, one Harry/Ginny or Harry/Snape archive, okay, I might like one central archive better still, but I get that, but why have four or five?? And several of those with the same archiving software too, so it's not even a case of "see, I couldn't really stand the whole efiction chapter thing so I made one using the automated archive instead" or something like that.

considering i just bemoaned the same thing in another fandom , i don't think i have much to add :-)

seriously, it's frustrating for writers and readers, i think, b/c niot only do readers have to check various archives, writers have to decide where they'll put theirs.

i yearn for the good ole centralized days!!!

I find this triple redundancy in archives of every kind totally mystifying. Sometimes they don't even have different policies or archive engines, or different functionality (and even if they do, unless the existing archive is really impractical or not suited for growth, I still see no need for another archive). My best guess is that there must be associated community kerfuffles or something like that which I'm unaware of that lead random fangirl X to create the fifth Snape/Hermione or Harry/Ginny archive which except for a different banner on top and maybe different (but equally cryptic) names for the same archive categories, is the same as the others of its kind.

usually, that's exactly the problem. HP Fandom is very much into subcultures, and inevitably, those within the subcultures clash. Another reason people form archives is because their fics for some reason or another were rejected at archive X and they got pissy and wanted to start a new one that only hosted the fics "they" approved of.

I run my own archive, Overcoming Rivalry (http://www.soulsdream.com/rivalry), for minor character het and genfic simply because I found that in the bigger archives, the level of quality was sadly lacking. I think it's the only one of it's kind, specifically focusing on the minor characters. I'm also a mod at Hand Me My Robes (http://www.handmemyrobes.com), which was started in part because it was very difficult to find het smut.

The thing is tough, for a reader it really isn't easier to find "quality" fic because there exist a gazillion of archives with "quality control". First, it's hard to know about all of them, second, even if I know about them I'm unlikely to visit extra archives for pairings I only read occasionally. It is much easier to have a central archive that's well organized and quickly scan fics myself, or you rely on rec pages for finding quality fiction, and if you look for fic for your rec page (and don't want to just repeat other people's recs) it's easier to have not to have to go to hundreds of places.

At a big archive an interesting summary for a story with a pairing I don't read often, may catch my attention, but I'm not about to visit an extra archive for that pairing. Like, I might read Harry/Pansy if I see an interesting summary at an archive I use anyway, but I have never visited the Harry/Pansy archive that apparently exists, and I'm not about to frequent it anytime soon. The Harry/Pansy author archiving only there has ghettoized the story, and limited the readership.

I mean, it takes me only seconds to decide whether I want to give something a try or not, and if it is bad I can always back out. If the archive has categories and summaries it's easy to find what you want. I think it is faulty to think that good fic somehow gets lost amidst the mass, it's far more likely to get lost in obscure archives nobody knows about.

I think, at least on the het side of things, it's also to do with the huge fandom wars HP has over pairings. I'm sure quite a few H/Hr shippers would rather have an archive where they get *no* R/Hr shippers at all, and vice versa, because god forbid they might get feedback from the other side bashing them for their paring, or that the other pairing might have more and better-written fic or whatever.

The slash side of HP used to be halfway decently organized, but that seems to be falling apart (or already has), too. Thankfully, I fell out of the fandom this summer...

Perhaps the pairing-centric archives were created many times over because of the policies and ToS stuff? Like, one Harry/Ginny archive might only archive a certain type or standard of fiction that goes through an approval system, where as someone wanted to create a do-it-yourself database archive of Harry/Ginny. So they did. *G*

I dunno, I think the HP fandom is widespread enough to warrant multiple shipping archives, because then it's more 'mom and pop' and less Wal-Mart. It is really annoying to have to troll around different sites, though. What HP needs is something like CFAN (http://www.subreality.com/cfan.htm"). Defunct and catering to a much smaller fandom community, granted, but still a nice place to gather links for further exploration.

Of course, who would ever volunteer for a non-paying job like that? *G* You'd have, like. No life, ahahaha.

Heh, yeah. Somehow everything is easier in small or mid-sized fandoms. Except of course when it's so small that you can find, like, no fic of the kind you like. At least in HP it's only a hassle to find and search through all the archives, rec pages, forums, whatever, but at least the fic *there*. Finding no fic for a fandom I like makes me much crankier than having too many archives to choose from. :)

Except of course when it's so small that you can find, like, no fic of the kind you like.

Ahah, it's true! When I was in the Tour of Duty fandom, it was so small that only consisted of - you, you guessed it - Mary Sue, 897697384-chapter fics. So my sister and I pioneered slash and created the first ToD fic archive. And before we ran away screaming in terror from the fandom, we created a tiny army of melodramatic, neurotic, psychopath slashers.

*proudly dusts hands together* Mission accomplished! *lol*

There used to be "Floo My Baby! A Harry potter link Archive" that had tons of the links listed that someone collected and put together (like thousands, all that I had ever heard of), but I just went there to see if was still alive to give you the url and it seems to be gone. :\

There's this one, the HPANA Top Harry potter Sites, which is more of a listing with ranks http://www.hpana-media.com/topsites/index.php

But yeah, a centralized list of ALL the archives and sites would be nice. I had thought about doing it once but yeah, no.

I think part of it is because a lot of pairing specific archives have different rating rules and other regulations.

Some won't take NC-17, some only take R and NC-17. Some allow Mpreg. Some allow underage pregnancy and sex. Some of the focus on one or two pairings. Still others are built around certain pairings, but allow other stories and ships as well [It's Always the Quite Ones (http://www.quietones.org) is a good example, IMHO. It's mainly Blaise/Hermione/Draco and all possible permutations, but they allow pretty much anything not horrifically written.]

I have stories on 24 different archives, ranging from multi-fandom sites, like The Pit of Voles and the Freedom of Speech, to General HP, such as MNFF, HPFF, Character Specific, like Métamorphose [Tonks stories] and ship specific, such as Table for Three. My only criteria for joining an archive is that I don't have to pass a test to get in, owing to the fact that I'm incredibly lazy and have over 80 stories, and don't feel like having to prove myself.

So I think that sometimes there's a stupid amount of archives for pairings, but on the other hand, since many have [occasionally random] rules to them, allowing the existence of one or two- each catered to specific genre tastes, like fluff, smut, or darkfic- is fine.

I get that there are disagreements over rules for archives, but part of what puzzles me is how some archives in HP fandom are seen like personal projects maybe? (I'm not very involved in community discussions in HP, hence the question mark), rather than community infrastructure, where rules could be discussed and amended to fit the community it serves, rather than every conflict leading to yet more archives.

I mean, I remember mailing list splits in some of my previous fandoms where I was involved in this type of discussion (around that time when creating lists became easier thanks to OneList and such, around 1998 or so?), where a central mailing list just couldn't reconcile policy differences, but the conflicts stretched over a long time where people tried to make it work (as in many many months), because a central discussion list had advantages for the fandom, and nobody really wanted to loose that, but there simply was no way to make it work. But it's not something that was done lightly or all the time.

Obviously with archives the owners of an archive have the final say in those questions, I'm not arguing against that, after all they are those who maintain the archive, who do the work and share the expenses (and also in some cases have to deal with legal implications of being held responsible under law for content hosted at a domain they own, especially in cases of underage sex, bestiality and these thing), but legal considerations are different from mere personal preferences, and in the fandoms I was in before HP archives weren't about preferences of the archivists. It was their archive, sure, but the idea behind the archives was to be infrastructure for the fandom as a whole.

I realize that everything in HP may be complicated by sheer size, but from my perspective as a reader it is frustrating that those who are dissatisfied with an archive rather create a new one than trying to influence the policies of the older ones, and of course the reverse if also true, that it is not constructive if archive owners aren't even open to discuss arbitrary archiving policy simply because it is their archive after all. As a reader I prefer archives to be as inclusive as possible, but with a good category organization and search function. Also I think quality control more belongs to rec pages rather then trying to implement "quality control" on an archival level, where it often only leads to contention.

Well, with the advent of eFiction, it's now a hundred times easier to create said archives.

Some archives are personal or only open to certain authors, where there be a test [such as Portkey] or just friends who want to share a space [I've seen quite a few of these.] I'm not a fan of archives wherein you have to email the story to the authors, personally, because giving feedback is usually harder, since the review options becomes moot.

It does get frustating, I imagine, to have to pick and choose. For me, ir's easier, since I write mainly genfic, although I do have a lot of romance pieces under my belt. However, since I tend to write rarepairs, it's also a lot easier for me to find the one or two sites dedicated to my pairs as well.

I think that one main problem might be, with the romance sites, a refusal to compromise on certain regulations. We're online; it's not as hard to say no to someone. So tantrums are thrown, and one side says "It's my archive, and you have to follow my rules, or you can leave, and the other side says "The hell with this, I'll make my own." So perhaps the blame comes from both sides.

Interesting. And, ah, history.

So, there have always been minor archives. But most of the "larger" minor archives arose in mid- to late 2001. Several of the earlier ones were directly related to spats with fanfiction.net, and, naturally, things cascaded from there. (Have a spat with your new major archive? Form your own!)

To some degree, additional archives were inescapable. ff.net used to allow NC-17 fic; then they removed it. That led to archives such as the Restricted Section, as FictionAlley also didn't allow NC-17. In an attempt not to stigmatize slash, ff.net does not have a "slash" category. This makes slash stories harder to find, and leads to the existence of slash-only archives like ISF.

There's also, quite frankly, a volume issue. How do you find anything good when there are several hundred thousand fics to search through? Somehow, another archive with "standards" seems like it makes things easier, but it really actually doesn't.

My problem with the creation of pairing-centric archives is in part a selfish one. I have a preferred pairing, and I will read anything in that pairing. However, I will also read most other pairings, and I will read genfic. So, the fact that everything is fractured everywhere means it's generally too much effort for me to keep track of things and read them.

I was actually strongly opposed to the creation of the Snape Slash Fleet in late 2001. It did end up having the effect I feared-- it fractured the Snape slash fandom into the popular pairings and the other pairings, and people became more and more ship-adherent. (Admittedly, I was also opposed to it having come out of a fandom where people were very strongly ship-adherent and had major and bitter ship wars.) Oh, well. Try to stop the tide, I guess.

It's not just the archives that split, though. Mailing lists did it as well. We went from a few "centralized" mailing lists-- e.g., hpslash, HP_Fanfiction, snapefans, etc.-- to pairing-centric mailing lists, five or six per pairing... and then people stopped reading most of the mailing lists altogether and moved on to livejournal.

What bothers me even more than the several dozen archives is the fact that so many stories are only available on livejournal.

In any case, I agree centralized archives are superior. And good search tools are necessary.

At this point, I assume people form "archives" as an excuse to collect their favorite reading material in one place so they don't have to visit twenty or thirty archives to get to it. I've considered it myself.

And, no, you're not the only one annoyed by cryptic archive names.

Somehow, another archive with "standards" seems like it makes things easier, but it really actually doesn't.

Yes, exactly. It really doesn't. I don't think good stories get lost in a mass of less than stellar ones as often as they get lost to total obscurity, because they're archived only at places with self-selected, limited readership, like special archives or LJ only, and most potential readers never even find it. Whereas they might have given a story with a pairing they don't normally read a try at a larger archive if the summary sounded interesting or it popped up in a keyword search.

I think rec pages are the better place for "quality control", but if you have rec page and like to browse for interesting fic, in order to not just rec the same stories as everyone else over and over, splintered archives don't make it easier. I mean, I maintain a multi-fandom AU recs page (sadly currently neglected), so if I see an AU posted somewhere in any of the fandoms I read, I always read at least the summary and the first paragraphs and I always search archives for their AU category and browse that, but I'm very unlikely to find fiction if it's only archived in some niche.

And to make it even more confusing (and to add an anecdote to the data, heh) the Snapefans ML almost ended up with an adjunct fic archive back in 2002. For various reasons (some of them kind of wanky) it didn't, thankfully.

I have no clue whatsoever what caused the further splintering after that, as I left the fandom.

It's strange that you mention this right now. A person on my flist who used to be active in HP fandom wrote her first HP fic in a long time (a couple of years, IIRC) and she had to ask her flist where to archive it other than Fiction Alley and ff.net.

To be honest, I don't know where to stick fic anymore either, HP, anime, or anything else.

Yeah, splintered archives really make a lot of things harder. I think perhaps it's too much of a "marketplace" view, that neglects to consider that in case of a community like fandom it is not necessarily the best thing to have lots of competing archives, just because the existing ones didn't suit every user in every last detail. Sometimes infrastructure works just better if it's centralized.

I mean, I'm not saying that a split or a new archive never makes sense and one should stick with the existing archives at all costs, but I also think that sometimes an existing archive with flaws is worth sticking with, even if it is not the perfect archive one envisions, because for the fandom in general it still might be better to have a central archive (or at least fewer archives) than many different competing archives which are all suiting maybe a specific subgroup better, but complicate things once you look outside the niche.

Ashwinder is actually one archive of SycophantHex.com. Other archives under that grouping include Occlumency (Snape either alone or with anyone else but Hermione), Pureblood (Malfoy family), Wolfsbane (Remus Lupin stories), The Burrow (stories pertaining to the Weasley family), Lumos (other characters or genfic), Chaos (crossovers, other fandoms and original fiction) and Eros & Sappho (slash and femslash pairings). Ashwinder, as you’ve pointed out, deals only with HGSS stories.

I know, that group of archives is one I am familiar with, and I even registered there to read the adult stuff, actually I think I registered at several, IIRC you had to sign up for the individual archives rather than all on that domain. I just wasn't aware of the other HG/SS archives out there or why there is a particular need for so many. BTW, that's another annoying thing about multiple archives, you need to register at a whole bunch of places if they protect adult material, instead of just once for all adult stuff which certainly would be easier to keep track of. I have lost count of all the HP archives where I registered or subscribed to some list for a password.

From the snitch.

I read all the comments and I think that we share similar thoughts about this. I wish that there was some centralized place where you can find and search for everything. I believe that having a specific pairing or type of story doesn't need so many archives, but at the same time, I rejoice in the fact that there are so many archives and so many stories. I was in smaller fandoms before HP and it didn't take long to read everything and exhaust them (Batman? Star Wars Luke and Vader fanfiction anyone? Angel and Connor fanfiction took only a DAY to clean out). :\

But perhaps NOT having a centralized place might protect the more daring types of stories from being found on smaller, hidden archives if say, JKR or her Laywers or Warner Bros decided to make it a quest to erradicate them from the net. Or if they wanted to delete ALL fanfiction.

I actually don't visit many of the other archives at all. I mean I do VISIT lots of them, probably all of them, but I only end up reading things on only a few types of archives besides my own. Of the smaller archives, I actually have only read things from:

-The Wizard's Playground, which is a HP fanfiction archive safe for children, sometimes it's a relief to read innocent things (http://hpficforkids.magnoliamama.com/index.php)

-Naice a Nilme, a LotR Aragon and Legolas angst archive, no slash (http://www.naiceanilme.com/index.php)

And Potions and Snitches, which is my own archive for Snape and Harry Gen stories. (http://www.potionsandsnitches.net/)

I guess that I am one of those people who started a specialized, specialized archive since a complete Snape and Harry archive in general, OR a really big Harry Potter archive with the Snape and Harry category (no slash) could have covered this area, but I found that that wouldn't cut it for me, and there really wasn't a big one at the time that I personally could work on and improve and make right.

I actually pondered the decision to make Potions and Snitches for awhile, and when I did decide to make it it was only because a large number of people were into it (Severitus type fics are like a huge subgenre, I'm sure you know) and there wasn't anything like it out there already. There was no Snape and Harry Gen archive, or website, or giant rec list. This Gen genre was actually big enough to support one. So when I did decide to do it, I decided that it would become a resource for the people in the fandom, that it would be the most complete Snape and Harry Gen place I could make it.

So while I want to tell all the Harry/Ginny archives to band together and make one great, giant archive already and split the costs and work, I can't for fear of being hypocrytical. XD

I actually started off in Star Trek fanfiction, going from people's personal websites before I found Fanfiction.net, and because it's so big and as centralized as you can get for all fanfiction, I'm regretably dependant on it. It's true that they have made strides with C2 groups and other things, but I still don't like the way things are there.

Of the Harry Potter large archives, I've only actually used Fiction Alley and Sugar Quill. All the others seem to have the same exact stories from fanfiction.net, too few members and stories, or have that administration problem of deleting people's stories without warning.

If I wrote non Potions and Snitches stories, I wouldn't know where to put them, it's kind of a stiffler.

Heh, I've read stuff on Potions and Snitches, but I don't check it often. It's not so much that I'm against specialty archives, as that I think it's cool and very practical if they supplement one main archive (or very few, like in fandoms that split gen/het/slash or gen/adult or something like that), rather than each story being just archived in some ghetto, because people only use the specialty archives.

I mean, as an example, back when I was into X-Files there were quite a few specialty archives, but also the central Gossamer archive, where you'd find most of the stuff as well (admittedly not all, but a lot). I checked the specialty archives for genres I liked in particular, like the archive for Mulder as profiler stories, or the archive for novel length stories, as well as some archives for particular kinks and such, but for example if I was searching for a story, but only remembered it vaguely, I could just search Gossamer's keywords and summaries. There's no way something like that could work in HP.

BTW I'm surprised that there isn't a lot of fic focusing on Angel and Connor, ATS being isn't that small is it? Unless you mean Angel/Connor? I can see that not being common. And I totally agree that there ought to be more Batverse fanfic. Unfortunately DC fanfic is also rather decentralized, though at least with it being smaller, the approach to have indexing communities like

dcfic_index in order to be able to easily find fic posted to LJ is feasible.

Hahaha, archived in some "ghetto". I'd love some big main archives for HP fanfiction. I think that it's just a weird fandom how it all turned out, mostly the way FictionAlley is structured with searches being so hard, and the NC-17 issues with all the archives. And all the ones that you'd think would be "main" HP fanfiction archives because of their domains, just aren't.

Yeah I mean Angel and Connor not Angel/Connor. XD Where's the fics? i've found a few good ones. What does ATS mean? Isn't it ATV? I'm not so into that fandom, I just like Angel and Connor fics.

ouuu thanks for that link to dcfic_index. I looove Batman. *_*

Yeah, FA is an odd archive. Not that I have a clue about HP history, but I think it might be that those who created it didn't have a lot of experience in other fandoms and the already existing systems with special search and archive functionalities for fanfic, and instead sort of went about reinventing the wheel again, with slightly different results. I mean even before eFiction became so popular there was the Automated Archive

astolat created, and probably others.

And you're right about the HP archives like hpfanfic.net and such. I think that shows that just infrastructure isn't enough for an archive to become widely used, perhaps it is not even the most important part (as archives that not that convenient to use but still very large and popular show), but that it has to be associated with a community to flourish. I don't mean that the archive site itself has to have forums attached necessarily or anything like that, but most of the major, central archives I can think of were initially archives of a central mailing list or newsgroup and then expanded from there. Even if the lists and such split later on, the archive remained central infrastructure.

I mean, the Raywars of Due South over the whole RayV vs RayK issue are legendary as ferocious shipperwars (and even years later when I came into that fandom, lists were deeply divided and the whole fandom felt like an emotional minefield where you had to navigate carefully around old grudges lurking everywhere) but Due South still has one central archive that AFAIK is used and accepted by all "sides". So archives can weather community splits, but what's much harder is to establish an archive that spans across subcommunities and forums after the fandom is already splintered or if it was never unified in the first place. I mean, some archives had some success with that, like in Farscape the Leviathan archive was IIRC established to provide a central, all-inclusive archive for all Farscape fanfic that was scattered across different archives and boards and such, and now I think it's the largest of the Farscape archives (though not the only one), but of course Farscape is much smaller than HP, and the whole "Save Farscape" campaign brought the fandom closer together.

Re ATS: To my knowledge ATS is the most common acronym for "Angel: The Series". Unfortunately I have no clue where you might find Angel&Connor fic, as I rarely read in the Buffy/Angel-verse, and the only archives I'm aware of are Buffy Fiction Archive and Slayerfanfic, which I'm sure you have searched already.

I guess FictionAlley is the new Harry potter hub since they now have a combined search for all areas. Well, I don't think they have NC-17 content on there so maybe not.

Yeah, I noticed the new search engine. You could hear my squee overseas. Now if only everybody archived all their G-R rated fic there... ;)

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