ratcreature | art angst? well, kind of...

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art angst? well, kind of...

I just decided to be finished with my drawing of Bob and go ahead an post it (see my previous post). Considering how much time I spent on it, it kind of sucks, partly because I tried new (to me) things, like surface textures, gradients and such digital stuff. It's not horrid or anything (well at least I don't think so) but just now I had the urge to put some disclaimer thing in the notes, i.e. listing all the things I know that are wrong with it like "I know the lightening doesn't look like firelight and the shadows are all wrong for that! and that the various metal textures suck! and the wood too! and that the candle light is all wrong, that that one candlestick turned out a bit too small and the other candle a bit too large..."

But I suspect that kind of thing doesn't go over any better for art than it does for fanfic. I myself quite dislike it when an author tells me at length all the ways their story sucks, and often I won't read it then, and with art I'll probably still look, but inevitably my attention will be drawn to all that is wrong (in the artist's mind) with the drawing, so that doesn't improve its impact any, though depending on how the artists talks about it it can be interesting from a technical viewpoint. Obviously I could have just not posted, but I spent hours on it and it's not that bad.

Beyond just being sick of the drawing after spending many, many hours on it, part of the problem is of course that I lack the skills to correct what I see is wrong with the drawing. I mean, okay, the size issues of that candlestick I could have easily corrected had I noticed earlier, not just towards the end, but it is far easier to see that the lightening and shadows don't look like what you want than to create the effects you want. So I get the urge to say that I know of the problems to not appear stupid/inept/oblivious/whatever to technical issues and give a "better" impression (well in theory, even if the realization lacks), but it's not like that makes the drawing any better, and in fact may even influence perception of the drawing negatively. Though I'm not sure whether people mind notes like that for art as much as for fic.

Anyway, I compromised by dumping my disclaiming in an extra LJ entry afterwards. And out of curiosity, a poll:

[Poll #975503]

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Honestly, such disclaimers make me cranky. Because I want to say, "I liked this piece just fine, and now you're telling me my taste sucks!"

Of course, I do it with my fic, sometimes, so I am a horrible hypocrite.

(Also? None of the things you mentioned jumped out at me when I looked at the image; the one thing *I* noticed was that the VS catalog cover seemed to be colored in a different style from the rest of it.)

Yeah, you're right about the VS catalog. I based it on a photo, and usually I flatten my coloring to two or three main colors per object, but I applied the same principle to the photo of the catalog (so that there are like three greens and three skin tones and such) to render that photo which makes it look as three dimensional as the stuff in the room, rather than an object with a photo. I think that causes the problem.

Honestly, I don't mind hearing about an artist's/writer's concerns--I'm curious to find out about their creative process and sometimes wonder if they dislike the same things I dislike. I want to learn from them.

Having said this, though, I hate it when it becomes a pattern in an arist's/writer's work--when they rant about it every time their work is presented or published. (For example, I love the web comic Megatokyo, but I have almost stopped reading the writer's comments because he denigrates his own talent so much. And over the same small problems which I don't think detract from his work at all.)

Yeah, I know what you mean, I think it's that being overly self-effacing isn't charming and after a certain point it come across as false modesty or something, especially from people who are quite successful with their craft.

Ooh, this is something I have very strong opinions on.

I *hate* it when writers and artists tell me that their work sucks or lay out a list of everything that's wrong with it before I even have a chance to make up my mind. And BELIEVE me, this is the voice of the converted speaking. I've been there, done that. I did it for years. I am the most insecure artist that you could ever hope to meet. Once upon a time, I would not-infrequently preface my sales spiel for my comics at conventions by telling people at conventions by telling people everything that I thought was wrong wtih them.

But over time ... you know how sometimes, you'll look and see other people doing something that annoys you, and then you'll look very closely and critically at yourself and realize that you're doing it too, and want to kick yourself through the ceiling? That's exactly what happened to me. Not instantly, but slowly, and in large part through fandom, where SO MANY people seem to draw what basically amounts to a cloak of exaggerated and ostentatious modesty around themselves.

And I realized that by telling people who wanted to buy my books, or read my webcomic online, all its flaws and then STILL offering it up for sale/viewing, I was being a horrible hypocrite. And I was obliquely telling people, "Your opinion doesn't matter. Here's how I want you to feel about this. I'm having this creative crisis and I hate it, so I want you to hate it too. I want you to validate my feelings of artistic self-worthlessness. OR I want you to tell me that it doesn't suck and it's awesome, so I can bask in my artistic depression and still get my ego stroked!"

But we don't get to tell our readers how to think. And trying to do so will just make them feel manipulated and angry. When I see someone on ff.net put IN THEIR STORY DESCRIPTION something like "This is not my best effort" or "This is my first story and it isn't very good", then my first reaction is, "Thanks for the warning; I won't read it then. And if you feel THAT strongly about it, then why are you putting it out for people to read? Take it down, polish it up, get a beta, and bring it back when you feel it's worth reading."

If it's worth pointing out the problems in your work, then it's worth fixing them. By pointing them out to your viewers, you're basically saying, "Yes, I know there are all of these specific problems, but I can't be bothered to fix them." Is that REALLY the impression you want to leave them with? I TOTALLY understand, believe me, the fear that your readers/viewers will think less of you if THEY spot flaws in your work that you didn't. Believe me, I know, I know! You're afraid that your viewers will think you're inept if you don't point out the flaws in yuor perspective/coloring/shading/proportion/whatever. But think about it -- how much MORE inept will they think you are if you know all about the flaws but didn't bother fixing them?

And believe me. I speak as someone who has been there, done that and got the emo T-shirt.

(continued...)

But wait, there's more! *snerk*

There is a tendency in us artistic people to want to wallow in our feelings of artistic worthlessness. We are the lonely artists, moping in our garrets, unloved and unappreciated by the world. And we want the world to tell us how great we are, so we can hold our hands to our brows and moan, "Oh, but I'm not worthy!" Or we want the world to validate our feelings of worthlessness, so we can go write depressing poetry or paint the walls black.

I'm telling you. Been there. And I still feel JUST as insecure and hate everything I've written and drawn JUST as much. But either you feel good enough about something to offer it up to your readers/viewers, or you don't. And if you DO put it out there, then I feel that it's courteous to let them make up their own minds about it. Picking apart every flaw in the work is a weird, inverse ego trip.

Assuming it's a finished work, of course. Now offering up a work for public concrit in the working stages, and then listening to what people say, is a really amazing and awesome and humbling thing to do. I've done that. In fact, in many ways, writing a fanfic WIP or doing a webcomic is very much that way. And sometimes the concrit is very WTF? and sometimes it's very helpful, but it's generally a good experience to go through.

Okay. Now having said all that, I really LOVE writer commentaries. I'm unlikely to read a long one (the fanfic DVD commentary meme generally just puts me to sleep) but a few paragraphs on how you did a particular piece of art, the technical aspects, what you think works about it and what doesn't work, the parts you still hate -- THAT, I love, love, love. I want to learn. And it's also really, really nice to hear that other artists have artistic insecurities and things about their work that bother then -- just like it's nice to know that other people have health problems and money problems just like me. But just because it's nice to know that I'm not the only one with health problems, doesn't mean that I necessarily want a run-down of every single way in which a given person's health problems affected their every activity for that day.

I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you, because I'm not trying to. Like I said ... I have seriously been there and done that. In fact, I still struggle against the tendency to bash my older comic work and my older fanfics from here to Timbuktu and back. And as part of a "making of" commentary, maybe someday I will -- but I really do believe that there's a right and a wrong way to do it. Implying to my readers that they have no taste for daring to like something I made and hated ... that's the wrong way. I know because I've done it.

Oh, and the Bob picture? I really liked it. Nice colors; very three-dimensional. You've got to remember that YOU have an idealized picture in your head of what the drawing was supposed to look like, but your readers don't. All I see is a really nice picture that is, IMHO, very well drawn and colored. I've certainly seen pro work that wasn't that good. Sure, it could be better. EVERYTHING could be better. John Cassaday is a comics art god (IMHO) but he's not Rembrandt.

I liked your Bob drawing and I think you have nothing to be ashamed of. *g* And I think a "process" commentary for some of your art would be really cool; I'd read it! It would also be interesting and helpful to analyze WHY some parts of the finished piece don't work for you (like the shadows, which *are* a bit wonky) ... and why you might not feel that it's worth the time, effort or frustration of correcting them.

*nod nod*
I totally see your point with the ego thing.

I like to think that I'm not all that neurotic about my art in general, and I certainly don't want to dissuade anyone from looking or tell them how to react (which is why I didn't put anything in the notes). I usually just feel the urge to distance myself like that a bit when I'm frustrated by something or when something didn't work like I wanted to.

As for perceiving problems and no fixing them, well, for me there are several factors. One is that sometimes the effort isn't worth the payoff, even when I theoretically knew how to do it better, say for example like late in the stages when I already did a lot of work I'd notice that a door in the room I'd drawn couldn't be opened the way I arranged a background, and I would have to redo everything. That kind of thing is sometimes easier with digital art, than in a traditional medium, but not always. Perhaps if I wanted to sell the drawing I'd do it, but it just wouldn't be fun to redraw the whole thing for something people who just look at it casually may never notice.

The other is that I may know something doesn't look right, but don't have the skill or practice to fix it or do it better. For example I have real problems with shadows and light sources. I mean, I understand in theory the physics behind it, but I don't have an intuitive feel for it, especially not how shadows fall with multiple and/or diffuse light sources and not patient enough to really do modelling or construction to figure it out the tedious way. I guess I could go look for photos of rooms/scenes with light conditions I want and orientate myself that way, but often I have no luck finding any. I try to fudge it by deciding on a main light direction for some drop shadows and some diffuse gradient things and such, because in my experience even some vaguely random and wrong shadows look better than *no shadows* in a drawing, but unfortunately I'm also really afraid of just making areas boldly dark (I have no idea why, I'm just timid that way, I try working on it, but without much success so far).

For example in this drawing I had a vague idea that there is some more central light source in the room to the upper left so shadows would fall to the right mostly and not be that long and then just added glow for the candles, and the it occurred to me that with the candles to the right of the catalog it would need a shadow that falls on the books, but I wasn't sure whether the skull shadow from the several candles would be visible on the catalog nor how much that light would diffuse the other shadow and nothing I tried immediately made it look better.... so I just let it be.

I do see what you're saying about all of these. I've reached a point on pretty much every one of my projects where, even though there are still things that drive me crazy, it's just not worth the time and energy to fix them. And I really hear you on this:

The other is that I may know something doesn't look right, but don't have the skill or practice to fix it or do it better.

Perspective is that way for me. I can't quite figure out why I have such a horrible time of it, because its rules are very simple and straightforward and mathematical. ANYONE should be able to do perspective just by following the rules. And yet, I try and things come out skewed almost every time. I've learned that it's almost better for me to half-ass it, because if I spent 6 hours carefully drawing perspective lines and it STILL comes out farked up, it's way more frustrating than if I spend 10 minutes doing quick-and-dirty perspective and having it be a little off.

Very true. I think part of it is that with most regular room perspectives the perspective points are so far off that construction is always cumbersome, or you have to resize things and such. Have you read "perspective for Comic Book Artists" by David Chelsea? It's a comic book about perspective and explains not just the construction rules, but also has tips and shortcuts on how to more succesfully fudge perspective without doing a full construction. I found it a bit hard to follow in places when it got to the more complicated and finer points of perspective, but overall it's very cool, and that it's a comic helps.

Oh, but I'm really glad you enjoyed the drawing. =) Thanks!

And I just looked back and noticed all the typos in my post. *HEADDESK* I wish the little box for writing comments on LJ wasn't so teeny, or that it gave you the option of fixing them.

I sometimes like it when there is an author's/artist's note at the end, with a link. Like, "click here if you want to see my thoughts on this piece".

I don't like it when I click on something like that and all it is is what's wrong; I like them to be more commentary-licious, although they can definitely include what's wrong! Something like: "here's some stuff I tried, I don't think this worked, here's what I thought about this".

Yeah, I think stuff like doing "DVD commentary" really has a different feel to it than a doing a preface of "First, let me tell me how this sucks... and then two paragraphs later: But I hope you still spend your time on it andlike it anyways, and leave me nice feedback!" And the latter part is at least implied, I mean, I don't think anyone would post it if they thought it had *no* merit, even if all the things that didn't work out as they wanted are oppressingly prominent in their mind just then. (I'm not thinking of those awful author notes that point out that they didn't even work on it, like the "excuse all the typos, I wrote it last night when I was drunk and it seemed funny at the time!")

I think that's exactly what I just spent WAY too many words trying to explain. It's the balance that's important -- the sense that the author has done some introspection and is offering up a commentary that she thinks would be genuinely interesting to read ... as opposed to a laundry list of failures.

(And again, I'm not saying you've done this ... but so many people do.)

-- With the addendum that they don't put me off if I already know and like the artist's work, and they don't bother me if they're entertaining enough, in the case of fic, to suggest that I will like the author's style.

True, for me author's notes are also more important to decide whether I give something a try if I don't know the author. If I'm already familiar it's only things like pairing and the summary blurb. Though I think for me there is a kind of longterm effect. If that kind of preface happens all the time I find it irritating even if I like the story.And sometimes I notice things that wouldn't have irritated me otherwise, for example a couple of times recently I had author's notes pointing out POV shifts, and normally, I'm not bothered much as long as the narrative is still clear, but the note made me hyper-aware of it then.

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art angst? well, kind of...

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