about Supernatural fanfic...

[ratcreature]

I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.

It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?

Comments

[elynross.livejournal.com]

For me, it's that I see the same kind of cues I'd see as slashy if they weren't brothers, if it were just a ghost-hunting buddy road trip of a show, and that in the context of the show, the only other person they have to rely on is the other man. They're isolated, no matter how well they get along in society, they save each others lives all the time -- from the very beginning, Dean was told to take care of his little brother. And from what we've had so far, their entire childhood was spent this way, on the hunt with their father, moving from place to place, family first and foremost -- until Sam broke away and tried to be "normal," and look how that worked out...

I do think that there has to be a willingness to buy the possibility that there is attraction; I think it's much like sexualized, erotic non-con, in that in real life people acknowledge that there are barriers and probabilities that we're willing to suspend in a fictional eroticized setting. If both guys weren't exceptionally hot, slash probably wouldn't predominate -- and I think you're right, it does, and most of it is REALLY REALLY BAD (really bad), exactly for the reasons you note: I'm inclined to read it as incestuous, but I still need a certain level of plausibility within a story that shows me where it's coming from.

But for me, it does come from that standing together against evil, isolated from the rest of society in a rather "unnatural" way, with a father who (one could speculate) was so focused on chasing the monsters and trying to find out what killed his wife that the boys only had each other to turn to.

That's why I do see and enjoy the brother slash in Supernatural, but I don't in Numb3rs. I see the possibility of them being fucked-up and outside the mainstream enough in the former, but in the latter, even though there are tensions between the brothers, and if they weren't brothers, I would see it as slashy, their interactions are just too normal, and the family situation too essentially healthy, for me to buy that they're fucking each other, the way I'm willing to buy it for the Winchesters.

[ratcreature]

I think I have hard time to make the step how a weird, isolated childhood leads to them being fucked-up in ways that eliminate not just the society's incest taboo as some outside norm that they just don't apply to them, but somehow creates sexual attraction. Especially since Sam is a few years younger than Dean, and that age difference would be quite significant for kids and teenagers, even if they were forced by circumstances to spend a lot of time with each other rather than friends or age mates. If they were just a year apart I could maybe see them fooling around with each other as kids and experimenting with each other more easily, seeing how removed they could have been from peers, and then I could maybe see the incest more easily between them as adults as well, I don't know.

I mean, I'm willing to be convinced by a good author, but it needs quite a few additional steps from what I see on screen. Yet somehow the Sam/Dean I skimmed read as if it already expected the reader to have made those steps in their head, kind of like some Snape/Harry fic is after years of fanfic and stories building this pairing from "unlikely" to one of the common pairings in HP fandom, but seeing how new the whole show still is, it's not like there's years of preparatory fanwork that made those tiny, incremental steps to make the pairing plausible I can fall back on to read stories which assume the pairing as self-evident.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I think I have hard time to make the step how a weird, isolated childhood leads to them being fucked-up in ways that eliminate not just the society's incest taboo as some outside norm that they just don't apply to them, but somehow creates sexual attraction.

Well, there's no reason you have to make that step, you know? If it's something you don't get, I'm not sure any level of explanation is going to make it make sense to you. It's essentially the same as VC Andrew's Flowers in the Attic, if not so extreme, in that they weren't shut away in a single set of rooms, they were out in the world, but their world was (plausibly) distorted and closed in by virtue of their father's self-chosen mission. It's a not uncommon fictional trope, through actual complete physical isolation (stranded on a desert island, locked in a single room together) that puts pressure on the individuals in question that distort the relationship.

I mean, I'm willing to be convinced by a good author...

Well, that's true for me with any slash. *g* I don't find Sam/Dean any more intrinsically implausible than (as you say) Harry/Snape, or Harry/Draco (or Harry/Sirius), and very few fan authors take the time to make those steps to convince me of it, either. Having been in HP from the start, I think very few ever actually took those steps with any of the pairings, but the accumulation of fiction that just assumes it, as you say, gives it a weight of plausibility for some people.

Yes, Sam is four years younger, I think. For me, that would have been significant when they were younger, but after having been apart for what seems to be at least four-five years, they are in some sense strangers to each other, having to learn who the other is all over again -- finding out that they don't share common assumptions (more shocking to Dean, I think, than Sam).

I'm not saying that in reality two brothers in this situation are at all likely to end up with a sexual attraction. For me, though, it falls quite plausibly in line with other assumptions slashers are willing to make to see two characters together, when the subtextual slash signs are there -- and I think they are there, for both Supernatural and Numb3rs, in ways that wouldn't be questioned if the pairings in question weren't brothers. For you, that's the single most significant thing that prevents you from interpreting it as slashy. For others, it's not a significant barrier for (presumably) the kinds of reasons I've described -- at least for Supernatural.

Although I'm sure for a lot of people it's simply that in each show, both guys are smoking hot and their most intense relationship is with their brother. *g*

[ratcreature]

Well, there's no reason you have to make that step, you know? If it's something you don't get, I'm not sure any level of explanation is going to make it make sense to you.

Of course I don't have to read Sam/Dean incest slash. The thing is, I read slash without being an intrinsic "slasher". I almost *never* "see" a slashy dynamic on screen or in the source. I usually come into a fandom looking for gen fic like there, then find out that somehow several predominant pairings are things I have never seen in the source, let authors and meta convince me of it and read those pairings, you know? I mean after watching TPM I wanted gen Obi-Wan&Qui-Gon stories, but those were often atrocious or het shipper stories, so I ended up reading Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon, and that's the usual way it goes for me when I come into a fandom.

But unlike with say HP or TPM when I started reading fanfic in those Supernatural is still new and I have no idea what the widely recced stories so far are, if there are any, so basically what I was asking in my post was for Supernatural fans to point me in the direction of fic and/or meta to make me see the slashy side of their relationship.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

The only story I've found so far that (for me) does a decent job of this is Maygra's Room and Board (http://wordsmiths.net/Maygra/#spn) -- the link goes to her SPN stories in general, gen and slash. I haven't read her longer slash series yet.

[ratcreature]

Heh, I actually already read that one. I think you linked to it, no? I remember following a link from my f-list to it anyway. It didn't fully convert me to the pairing, but it worked well enough for the duration of the story.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Figures. *g* I've read another I liked okay, but the whole setup was such that you didn't have to be convinced -- it was the equivalent of "aliens made them have sex", basically, and then in the aftermath, Sam's a bit tortured that he enjoyed it (basically a blowjob for Dean, I think), and it ends with Dean going to him, because he's never been able to deny Sam anything, and what was this but one more way to be there for his little brother, who'd already lost so much?

joyfulgirl41 had a couple of short pieces (http://www.livejournal.com/community/sn_fic/13103.html?mode=reply), one gen, one slash, that I enjoyed, as well, although the gen one has a premise that's not particularly supported by canon, and could have been much more developed.

[shealynn88.livejournal.com]

The "aliens made them do it story" was this one:

Factum Amoris (http://www.livejournal.com/users/scribblinlenore/215467.html)

I enjoyed that one as well...it helped convert me to the Wincest.

Honestly, I'm not one who sees slashy potential in shows. Period. This is the first fandom that I've written slash in. Which is odd, because let me tell you, the Wincest squicked me big time at first.

I don't know what converted me. It was slow process. But here I am.

There is a series that I enjoyed that gives backstory on the whole Wincest thing. It is chock full of kinks, and it has underage elements in it, but I thought it did a great job of explaining the dynamic and developing it, while also developing Sam's psychic abilities and getting into the family dynamic. If you're easily squicked, this one may not be for you, but it is very deep and I thought, well done.

Things My Brother Taught Me (http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/61443.html)

Wednesday's Child (http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/61879.html) (This and the next one are my favorites)

The Wind Cries Mary (http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/62120.html)

In Vino Veritas (http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/62326.html#cutid1)

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you, that's precisely the one! I think I have it bookmarked to rec at some point, but I couldn't find it at the time. And I'm delighted to have other recs.

I haven't yet tried my hand at writing it, so I don't know how it will go. I suspect I'll require more convincing of the boys' willingness when I write it than I do reading it, which will complicate things. *g* But I do have ideas!

[shealynn88.livejournal.com]

I have a suspicion that the Wincest I write is of the bad variety. But I still enjoy writing it. It's rare to find the really good stuff, so I'm glad to rec it when I find it! :)

[thisisbone.livejournal.com]

I just have to thank you for the rec of the Things My Brother Taught Me series. Sweet JESUS, that shit is hot. I went and friended the writer and was rewarded with the next part of the story -- Wake Up Older.

It's so wrong, but it's so RIGHT!

[thisisbone.livejournal.com]

Here via thete1.

I was asking in my post was for Supernatural fans to point me in the direction of fic and/or meta to make me see the slashy side of their relationship

I have read maygra's longer SPN fic, the stories in the False Comforts universe, and I think they are beautifully written and they convinced me of the potential for an erotic connection between Sam and Dean in the right circumstances. She didn't make it easy, I can tell you that, but by the time it got to the point where they became sexually involved, she'd laid enough groundwork and had it evolve so organically that anything else would have felt wrong.

That to me is the gift a good author brings -- where despite the divide between what we see on TV and what the author is telling us is "true" in her fic, we believe what she says because it's so well done.

I realize you don't know me from Adam, so take it all for what it's worth, but I resisted the False Comforts series for a long time, and now I've read it all the way through about four times. (http://wordsmiths.net/Maygra/#spn)

[thisisbone.livejournal.com]

I hate HTML. Sorry about that. :(

[ratcreature]

I realize you don't know me from Adam,

Well, I remember adoring your stories back in TS... :) And thanks for the rec, I'll definitely give the series a try.

[thisisbone.livejournal.com]

Well, I remember adoring your stories back in TS... :)

Really? That's so cool! Thanks!

And thanks for the rec, I'll definitely give the series a try.

maygra also has an "all audiences, no pairing" story in progress now. I'm getting ready to print it out to take with me on vacation. :)

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Just to say...I'm no incest reader (she says, having just read Snape/WeasleyTwins *g*), but Flowers in the Attic! Man, who didn't read that in junior high? And you know, it was *in* our junior high library and nobody was trying to get it removed. *g*

[elynross.livejournal.com]

That's pretty amazing. *g*