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about Supernatural fanfic...

I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.

It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at

ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?

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I share your puzzlement. Not only can't I really see any physical attraction in canon (esp. one that wouldn't be overcome by the strong incest taboo in our culture--and these are not boys who lack acculturation. Just look at that car!) And really, aside from the fact that they *are* brothers and have chosen to work together, nothing about them suggests to me that they'd voluntarily spend any time together if they *weren't* brothers.

And, as time passes and I spend more time thinking about incest slash, I'm more and more feeling a little uncomfortable at the idea that the incest taboo has become just another barrier between Romeo and Juliet, because it feels like there's some sort of sublimation of something (not incest, but just... it's as if we've convinced ourselves that it's just too easy for two men to find lasting happiness in bed with each other these days, and I'm not at all convinced the Berlin Wall has fallen on that one.

Reassuring to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't see the slash potential. *g* For me they seem even more unlikely than some of the other more popular incest pairings, like for example when I squint can sort of see the Weasley twins fooling around with each other as teenagers, seeing how they're exactly the same age, though it's harder to imagine any sort long term arrangement between them once they're grown up, unless they share they girlfriends in a foursome or something like that. But Sam is a couple of years younger than Dean in addition to being his brother, which makes a huge difference for kids and teenagers, so unless the author proposes that Dean was molesting his kid brother, there certainly wasn't anything between them then, no matter that their family was moving around a lot hunting monsters, and they maybe lacked other friends or whatever childhood issues authors may bring up. Then Sam left for college, and it to me it seems more that they have to get used to each other again.

For me, it's that I see the same kind of cues I'd see as slashy if they weren't brothers, if it were just a ghost-hunting buddy road trip of a show, and that in the context of the show, the only other person they have to rely on is the other man. They're isolated, no matter how well they get along in society, they save each others lives all the time -- from the very beginning, Dean was told to take care of his little brother. And from what we've had so far, their entire childhood was spent this way, on the hunt with their father, moving from place to place, family first and foremost -- until Sam broke away and tried to be "normal," and look how that worked out...

I do think that there has to be a willingness to buy the possibility that there is attraction; I think it's much like sexualized, erotic non-con, in that in real life people acknowledge that there are barriers and probabilities that we're willing to suspend in a fictional eroticized setting. If both guys weren't exceptionally hot, slash probably wouldn't predominate -- and I think you're right, it does, and most of it is REALLY REALLY BAD (really bad), exactly for the reasons you note: I'm inclined to read it as incestuous, but I still need a certain level of plausibility within a story that shows me where it's coming from.

But for me, it does come from that standing together against evil, isolated from the rest of society in a rather "unnatural" way, with a father who (one could speculate) was so focused on chasing the monsters and trying to find out what killed his wife that the boys only had each other to turn to.

That's why I do see and enjoy the brother slash in Supernatural, but I don't in Numb3rs. I see the possibility of them being fucked-up and outside the mainstream enough in the former, but in the latter, even though there are tensions between the brothers, and if they weren't brothers, I would see it as slashy, their interactions are just too normal, and the family situation too essentially healthy, for me to buy that they're fucking each other, the way I'm willing to buy it for the Winchesters.

I think I have hard time to make the step how a weird, isolated childhood leads to them being fucked-up in ways that eliminate not just the society's incest taboo as some outside norm that they just don't apply to them, but somehow creates sexual attraction.

Well, there's no reason you have to make that step, you know? If it's something you don't get, I'm not sure any level of explanation is going to make it make sense to you. It's essentially the same as VC Andrew's Flowers in the Attic, if not so extreme, in that they weren't shut away in a single set of rooms, they were out in the world, but their world was (plausibly) distorted and closed in by virtue of their father's self-chosen mission. It's a not uncommon fictional trope, through actual complete physical isolation (stranded on a desert island, locked in a single room together) that puts pressure on the individuals in question that distort the relationship.

I mean, I'm willing to be convinced by a good author...

Well, that's true for me with any slash. *g* I don't find Sam/Dean any more intrinsically implausible than (as you say) Harry/Snape, or Harry/Draco (or Harry/Sirius), and very few fan authors take the time to make those steps to convince me of it, either. Having been in HP from the start, I think very few ever actually took those steps with any of the pairings, but the accumulation of fiction that just assumes it, as you say, gives it a weight of plausibility for some people.

Yes, Sam is four years younger, I think. For me, that would have been significant when they were younger, but after having been apart for what seems to be at least four-five years, they are in some sense strangers to each other, having to learn who the other is all over again -- finding out that they don't share common assumptions (more shocking to Dean, I think, than Sam).

I'm not saying that in reality two brothers in this situation are at all likely to end up with a sexual attraction. For me, though, it falls quite plausibly in line with other assumptions slashers are willing to make to see two characters together, when the subtextual slash signs are there -- and I think they are there, for both Supernatural and Numb3rs, in ways that wouldn't be questioned if the pairings in question weren't brothers. For you, that's the single most significant thing that prevents you from interpreting it as slashy. For others, it's not a significant barrier for (presumably) the kinds of reasons I've described -- at least for Supernatural.

Although I'm sure for a lot of people it's simply that in each show, both guys are smoking hot and their most intense relationship is with their brother. *g*

Well, there's no reason you have to make that step, you know? If it's something you don't get, I'm not sure any level of explanation is going to make it make sense to you.

Of course I don't have to read Sam/Dean incest slash. The thing is, I read slash without being an intrinsic "slasher". I almost *never* "see" a slashy dynamic on screen or in the source. I usually come into a fandom looking for gen fic like there, then find out that somehow several predominant pairings are things I have never seen in the source, let authors and meta convince me of it and read those pairings, you know? I mean after watching TPM I wanted gen Obi-Wan&Qui-Gon stories, but those were often atrocious or het shipper stories, so I ended up reading Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon, and that's the usual way it goes for me when I come into a fandom.

But unlike with say HP or TPM when I started reading fanfic in those Supernatural is still new and I have no idea what the widely recced stories so far are, if there are any, so basically what I was asking in my post was for Supernatural fans to point me in the direction of fic and/or meta to make me see the slashy side of their relationship.

I've been leaning toward trying to get my hands on the episodes to see them but having taken a glance at the Supernatural fandom I'm not sure I want to get involved because I just don't ever think that incest should fall into 'shippiness' and the idea that it does squicks me out majorly. I avoid it in Firefly too. Part of me can see how people can go there because the actors are *NOT* related but...the concept of it...incest isn't something that should be played for hot or for laughs or for 'ship. It can be a very devastating thing or, in best case scenario, extremely screwed up. It's not...for teh hot y'know?

The only story I've found so far that (for me) does a decent job of this is Maygra's Room and Board (http://wordsmiths.net/Maygra/#spn) -- the link goes to her SPN stories in general, gen and slash. I haven't read her longer slash series yet.

Well, while fictional incest doesn't work as a *kink* for me, it doesn't really squick me either, at least not if it isn't adult/child at the same time, and I have a number of kinks myself that really work for me in fiction, but are majorly screwed up, like I read rape, slavery and torture stories because the right kind can turn me on, so I'm not really in a position to say incest shouldn't be used for kink without being really hypocritical.

Heh, I actually already read that one. I think you linked to it, no? I remember following a link from my f-list to it anyway. It didn't fully convert me to the pairing, but it worked well enough for the duration of the story.

Fictional incest itself doesn't squick me out in a concept sort of way but the idea that it can fit into shippiness without anyone thinking it out of the ordinary or trying to write it out of the ordinary? That sort of does. It's one of those concepts for me that I think shouldn't be done lightly. Just the same, I usually just avoid it. With Supernatural I get the feeling I might end up avoiding the entire fandom.

But with kinks I think it all depends on it being done right. Written properly and such. With something like incest...I just can't wrap my brain around seeing it the same way I do other kinds of slash. I can't see a Sam/Dean story as being no different than a Jack/Daniel story (or a River/Simon story being any different than a..say...Sam/Daniel). It's like Snape/Harry. I just can't accept it at face value for a PWP and such. It needs...that much more for me. That little bit of explanation and, at least, the implicit understanding that this? Very screwed up. y'know?

First and foremost, I really adore you because you're one of the few people I know who would do a post along the lines of "This makes no sense to me and bores me and also makes no sense! ... please come explain it to me! WHERE IS THE META?!"

*ehehehe* I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to

ship_manifesto. I have heart. :D

Anyway, I'm not in the fandom and I haven't seen the show. I have, however, been tracking reactions to it in my usual obsessive fanthropology way. A lot of it seems to be what

elynross describes above -- "if they weren't brothers, I would've been slashing them from the word go just based on the facts of their relationship/how they interact with each other," combined with "I suppose it's possible that non-incestuous brothers behave that way with each other, but it's pretty far outside my experience for normal sibling behavior," combined with the more specific "do the actors know they're supposed to be playing *brothers*?" factor.

I call the last one the River/Simon option, really, because while I *have* talked to some people who saw nothing remotely suspect/'suspect' in the actors' body language toward each other, they were really profoundly -- and intriguingly -- in the minority.

I also wonder if there might not be some aspects of "I slash for the revolution" going on. I mean, mostly I find the idea of being into slash for political reasons kind of... odd, but, then again...

In a world where the concept "buddy shows are kind of inherently gay" is mainstream enough for most people to get the primary joke of the recent of Starsky and Hutch film, I can't help but notice that the number of buddy shows available has... dwindled. While it's nice to get a few more m-f buddy shows, it's kind of...

Well, I was talking to

liviapenn a few days ago about the recent explosion of brothercest across fandoms, and this is one of the things she talked about -- many of the shows which used to be all about 'buddies' are now all about 'brothers,' with nothing else about the relationship -- and the relationship's often desperate intensity -- changed.

I'm pretty sure that if I were truly *in* one of those fandoms -- I am, at best, peripheral to Numb3rs -- it's the sort of cynicism/political slashing which *would* affect how I went about things. Sort of a, "so you don't want me to slash your show, eh? BITE ME."

Especially if, well, I already thought the relationship *was* (at least a little) slashy.

Figures. *g* I've read another I liked okay, but the whole setup was such that you didn't have to be convinced -- it was the equivalent of "aliens made them have sex", basically, and then in the aftermath, Sam's a bit tortured that he enjoyed it (basically a blowjob for Dean, I think), and it ends with Dean going to him, because he's never been able to deny Sam anything, and what was this but one more way to be there for his little brother, who'd already lost so much?

joyfulgirl41 had a couple of short pieces (http://www.livejournal.com/community/sn_fic/13103.html?mode=reply), one gen, one slash, that I enjoyed, as well, although the gen one has a premise that's not particularly supported by canon, and could have been much more developed.

I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to

ship_manifesto

Yeah, absolutely. In my mind posting how one doesn't get a ship or something like that without first trying to find meta about it in the well-known multi-fandom / fandom-pimping places at least is kind of like inviting a "read the fucking manual" response, you know? It's not like I do indepth research or anything before posting about a corner of fandom I'm not familiar with, but more like first trying to find the FAQs and such, because who wants to be the obnoxious newbie who posts the umpteenth fic search request to the fiction only list? *g*

Your point about the decline of the "buddies" concept on tv, and how it's replaced with brothers is interesting. I can see brothercest as a meta response to that, but meta and production explanations don't tend to extend well for me when I'm trying to understand the source internally. Even with obvious production constraints or continuity errors when they just missed something, I'm always happier to find an explanation (even a convoluted one) that works fully on the fictional level.

Even with obvious production constraints or continuity errors when they just missed something, I'm always happier to find an explanation (even a convoluted one) that works fully on the fictional level.

*nods* I hear that.

many of the shows which used to be all about 'buddies' are now all about 'brothers,' with nothing else about the relationship -- and the relationship's often desperate intensity -- changed.

Good point and most likely precisely the reason.

If you think about it, it makes total sense from a writer POV. They can write characters in an intense relationship without creating a Smallville like "OMG, they are so gay, put them together!" reaction. And they actually have to work less hard to establish and explain why two characters would hang out with each other and stick with each other.

I like the boycest, but that's because I'm shallow.
What I would love to see dealt with, fic-wise, is the lore surrounding incest. It plays a strong role in a lot of myths, and I would love to see someone tie in some of that mythology into a slash story, either as a good thing or a bad thing. (bad thing, bad thing!)

You know, I can't even explain it to you. Normally, I would not enjoy anything involving incest. There is something about this show that erases that barrier for me. I don't know if it's because they are so hot or what. I honestly don't *want* to find it hot because, really, it's squicky. But I can't seem to help myself. Something about the show adds up to it working for me.

I do agree with a lot of what

elynross said. They just grew up so strangely and have had to rely soley on each other for so long, it doesn't seem like that big of a step for them. And they are well aware of how fucked up it is which I think adds to my ability to buy it. If it was something they just sort of fell into and were like "fuck it, who cares if we are brothers!" I don't think I would find it as interesting. There is just so much messed up angst and hotness on their little road trip that it just works.

That probably doesn't help at all. But I thought it might be helpful to know that even someone *involved* in the fandom doesn't quite get it either. ;)

If you think about it, it makes total sense from a writer POV. They can write characters in an intense relationship without creating a Smallville like "OMG, they are so gay, put them together!" reaction. And they actually have to work less hard to establish and explain why two characters would hang out with each other and stick with each other.

*nods* And, with some fandoms anyway... it just makes the characters look gay *and* perverse.

I'm totally watching this thread, though. I don't watch the show -- not interested -- but I'm *curious* now. *Is* it the body language of the actors? Is it the writing?

Because I think -- powerful meta-reasons or no -- that *most* people are slashing them for the same (kinds of) reasons why slashers slash anyone. But... yeah. DETAILS NOW. I NEED IT FOR MY ENDLESS STUDIES.

*pops back in* Is it at all like Lost Boys? I mean, that movie was just... well. Michael and Sammy! You've got the bizarre insular lifestyle -- with childhood trauma -- which keeps them apart, the plot further pushes them away from mainstream society, the actors were all *over* each other in a way which would make freaking comics!Dick say "hey, kinda touchy, don't you think?," and there were lots of little moments in the writing like, oh, say,

"Sammy, I *need* you!"

I totally see the connection; in fact, that was the first thing to cross my mind when Dean called Sam "Sammy" and Sam was all "it's SAM now!" Michael, I mean Dean, and Sam just have chemistry.

You've got the bizarre insular lifestyle -- with childhood trauma -- which keeps them apart, the plot further pushes them away from mainstream society, the actors were all *over* each other in a way which would make freaking comics!Dick say "hey, kinda touchy, don't you think?," and there were lots of little moments in the writing like, oh, say,

"Sammy, I *need* you!"

Heh! Yes! Although, I wouldn't say that Jared and Jensen are "all over" each other but they do have a wicked chemistry. But the rest of the stuff is very much them. Sam *tries* to get away from the weird lifestyle that his father pushed them in to after their mother died, you know, go to college, have a girlfriend, be a lawyer, but his brother drags him back in. Then things really go to shit when his girlfriend gets killed. So they really are all each other have.

Plus, they already do things every day that society thinks is outside the norm and they spend a lot of time risking their lives and getting the crap kicked out of them. And then there is the shapeshifters that take the shape of one of them or when the other is possessed and says a bunch of stuff he normally wouldn't.

And, well, one of them is named Sammy. Heh.

I think it's just a question of availability.

We have characters who are attractive, we want to see them in sexual situations, we look around and pick whatever is the most intense relationship one can find.

I think it's less a question of more people liking brothercest, but that are just more shows that offer the potential for brothercest. Top of my head, Num3rs, Supernatural, Prison Break and My Name is Earl all shows that center around one central brother relationship. Num3rs is one year old, the other three all came out at the same time.

If you think about it, there was a rush in canon incest and semi-incest of the het kind right before that. Simon/River UST Firefly, Billy/Brenda (fool blooded siblings) from Six Feet Under, Shannon/Boone Fauxincest on Lost, Veronica/Duncan "We thought it was incest" on Veronica Mars, some pairing on Carnivale, even Whitney/Chad (half siblings as far as we and they nkow) on the soap opera Passions.

Maybe incest is the new black. Maybe most other type of scandalous relationships have been exhausted and are considered old news at this point and suddenly there is a push for incest or incest-y type of pairings on tv. In canon!

But yeah, was incest really all that rare even before that? I'm thinking Luthorcest here...

Me, I'm kinda attracted to whatever strikes me as an intense relationship. Another definitive advantage of sibling relationships from a writing POV is that it's more acceptable for siblings to be nasty to each other and still stick together. If they were "just" best friends one would eventually wonder why they don't just go their seperate ways or why they ever bothered liking each other in the first place. But if there is family loyalty it makes more sense that a lot more would be forgiven or glossed over (and I'm thinking canon here. Things that actually show up on screen).

It would generally be a worthy meta to talk about the differences between brothercest and father/son cest. I don't have that many fandoms, but at least Smallvile and The X-Files had father/son to some extent.

I'm guessing that the key difference is that the brothercest pairings are considered more acceptable as a potential romantic options. While Luthorcest is mainly written for just the mindfuck.

I admit I like 'cest mainly for the mindfuck. I'm all about them having bad endings and the characters torturing themselves over it and being unhappy.

And, well, one of them is named Sammy. Heh.

*ahahhaa*

I CAN'T JUDGE YOU. (http://teland.com/lb.html)

I'm curious, though...

Plus, they already do things every day that society thinks is outside the norm ...

Do you think this informs the fic to any *large* degree? The idea of "already outsiders, already weird, why not?"

(If so, I think I can see why people who weren't as primed for the kink might find it all a bit... meh. Because, hmm. It seems simplistic?)

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