RatCreature (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
ratcreature) wrote2005-12-15 04:13 pm
ratcreature) wrote2005-12-15 04:13 pm
Entry tags:
about Supernatural fanfic...
I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.
It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.
I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?
It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.
I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at
ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?
no subject
*ehehehe* I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to
Anyway, I'm not in the fandom and I haven't seen the show. I have, however, been tracking reactions to it in my usual obsessive fanthropology way. A lot of it seems to be what
I call the last one the River/Simon option, really, because while I *have* talked to some people who saw nothing remotely suspect/'suspect' in the actors' body language toward each other, they were really profoundly -- and intriguingly -- in the minority.
I also wonder if there might not be some aspects of "I slash for the revolution" going on. I mean, mostly I find the idea of being into slash for political reasons kind of... odd, but, then again...
In a world where the concept "buddy shows are kind of inherently gay" is mainstream enough for most people to get the primary joke of the recent of Starsky and Hutch film, I can't help but notice that the number of buddy shows available has... dwindled. While it's nice to get a few more m-f buddy shows, it's kind of...
Well, I was talking to
I'm pretty sure that if I were truly *in* one of those fandoms -- I am, at best, peripheral to Numb3rs -- it's the sort of cynicism/political slashing which *would* affect how I went about things. Sort of a, "so you don't want me to slash your show, eh? BITE ME."
Especially if, well, I already thought the relationship *was* (at least a little) slashy.
no subject
Yeah, absolutely. In my mind posting how one doesn't get a ship or something like that without first trying to find meta about it in the well-known multi-fandom / fandom-pimping places at least is kind of like inviting a "read the fucking manual" response, you know? It's not like I do indepth research or anything before posting about a corner of fandom I'm not familiar with, but more like first trying to find the FAQs and such, because who wants to be the obnoxious newbie who posts the umpteenth fic search request to the fiction only list? *g*
Your point about the decline of the "buddies" concept on tv, and how it's replaced with brothers is interesting. I can see brothercest as a meta response to that, but meta and production explanations don't tend to extend well for me when I'm trying to understand the source internally. Even with obvious production constraints or continuity errors when they just missed something, I'm always happier to find an explanation (even a convoluted one) that works fully on the fictional level.
no subject
*nods* I hear that.
no subject
Good point and most likely precisely the reason.
If you think about it, it makes total sense from a writer POV. They can write characters in an intense relationship without creating a Smallville like "OMG, they are so gay, put them together!" reaction. And they actually have to work less hard to establish and explain why two characters would hang out with each other and stick with each other.
no subject
If you think about it, it makes total sense from a writer POV. They can write characters in an intense relationship without creating a Smallville like "OMG, they are so gay, put them together!" reaction. And they actually have to work less hard to establish and explain why two characters would hang out with each other and stick with each other.
*nods* And, with some fandoms anyway... it just makes the characters look gay *and* perverse.
I'm totally watching this thread, though. I don't watch the show -- not interested -- but I'm *curious* now. *Is* it the body language of the actors? Is it the writing?
Because I think -- powerful meta-reasons or no -- that *most* people are slashing them for the same (kinds of) reasons why slashers slash anyone. But... yeah. DETAILS NOW. I NEED IT FOR MY ENDLESS STUDIES.
no subject
We have characters who are attractive, we want to see them in sexual situations, we look around and pick whatever is the most intense relationship one can find.
I think it's less a question of more people liking brothercest, but that are just more shows that offer the potential for brothercest. Top of my head, Num3rs, Supernatural, Prison Break and My Name is Earl all shows that center around one central brother relationship. Num3rs is one year old, the other three all came out at the same time.
If you think about it, there was a rush in canon incest and semi-incest of the het kind right before that. Simon/River UST Firefly, Billy/Brenda (fool blooded siblings) from Six Feet Under, Shannon/Boone Fauxincest on Lost, Veronica/Duncan "We thought it was incest" on Veronica Mars, some pairing on Carnivale, even Whitney/Chad (half siblings as far as we and they nkow) on the soap opera Passions.
Maybe incest is the new black. Maybe most other type of scandalous relationships have been exhausted and are considered old news at this point and suddenly there is a push for incest or incest-y type of pairings on tv. In canon!
But yeah, was incest really all that rare even before that? I'm thinking Luthorcest here...
Me, I'm kinda attracted to whatever strikes me as an intense relationship. Another definitive advantage of sibling relationships from a writing POV is that it's more acceptable for siblings to be nasty to each other and still stick together. If they were "just" best friends one would eventually wonder why they don't just go their seperate ways or why they ever bothered liking each other in the first place. But if there is family loyalty it makes more sense that a lot more would be forgiven or glossed over (and I'm thinking canon here. Things that actually show up on screen).
no subject
I'm guessing that the key difference is that the brothercest pairings are considered more acceptable as a potential romantic options. While Luthorcest is mainly written for just the mindfuck.
I admit I like 'cest mainly for the mindfuck. I'm all about them having bad endings and the characters torturing themselves over it and being unhappy.
no subject
You're right, though, that brothercest -- and sibling hetcest, though to an intriguingly lesser degree -- are considered 'safer.' Less fucked-up. It makes me... want to do another poll. Which I won't. BUT SOMEONE SHOULD. Um.
Oh God, don't let me do another meta post before I answer these COMMENTS...
no subject
And the truth is that a lot of people thinking that them being more radical and breaking more taboos automatically makes them smarter or deeper somehow.
Another angle is of course incest in "real" literature. In school I had to read dozens of turn of the century and ealier German authors and they were full of incest stories or things that the literary critique interpreated as incest longings (Kafka for example or Max Frisch's "Homo Faber" about accidental father/daughter incest; considered a modern classic). Plus it helps that one of my most recent most favourite scifi books, Jeff Noon's "Vurt" features a full fledged brother/sister sex relationship that is the core motivation for the hero (well aside from the sexually ambigious hero worship of the group leader, but that's a different story).
Oh God, don't let me do another meta post before I answer these COMMENTS...
Wheeee, Te meta is always good :D
no subject
God, yes. The amount of incest lit I read in college ... Graham Swift's Waterland comes to mind especially. And of course I'm blanking on everything else, but there was quite a bit. I think that probably dulled my squick!factor, but also made me expect fandom's brand of incest to be treated in the same really grim, bleak way it shows up in books.
(no subject)
no subject
Heh, this reminds me of a few years ago, SNL had a fake ad for Friends, saying that the show was going to cross the one romantic boundary it hadn't .... Ross/Monica incest. And then a year or two later the show had an episode where they'd accidentally made out in the dark as teenagers.
The OC has also had lots of faux-incest.
no subject
no subject
To me it's like Lex and Clark. I wasn't into Lex and Clark and to me it was never about the chemistry. It was about the fact that the story just didn't make any sense. It just didn't make any sense that Lex comes, declares Clark his friend after knowing him for a day, wants to give him a car and movie tickets and fireworks...
Same on Prison Break. What brother A does for Brother B is just not normal. Not even for siblings. There has to be more to the story. The "more" can be anything, slash or not. But for my definition of it, I crave *something* there. Something deeper, something meaningful.
The interesting thing is that the pairing I'm talking about actually isn't the fandom OTP the way Sam/Dean or Lex/Clark are, for a variety of reasons (a strong and interesting het OTP, it's an ensemble show with a variety of other potential slash pairings, the fact that the core of the fandom's slash writing doesn't center around the preternaturally beautiful genius brother but rather around a middle aged white supremacist serial raping and killing nekrophiliac pedophile and everything that walks). I think that actually a lot of people *see* them, but they aren't necessarily being written, if that makes any sense.
Sam/Dean is much more tight wired because they are basically the only characters on the show, with no permanent love interests and not even alternative slash pairings.
no subject
But thank you!
This:
To me it's like Lex and Clark. I wasn't into Lex and Clark and to me it was never about the chemistry. It was about the fact that the story just didn't make any sense. It just didn't make any sense that Lex comes, declares Clark his friend after knowing him for a day, wants to give him a car and movie tickets and fireworks...
Same on Prison Break. What brother A does for Brother B is just not normal. Not even for siblings. There has to be more to the story. The "more" can be anything, slash or not. But for my definition of it, I crave *something* there. Something deeper, something meaningful.
Totally works for me. It's, well, part of the philosophy behind most of my Batverse pairings of choice, really. And plenty of the ones I don't like, but still 'see.'
no subject
LOL, it's not our fault! It's an actor thing!
(It does amuse me that the current OTP flavour of the month are two characters who have never actually met in canon and quite potentially might never do so; the fambulously gay pedophile and Brother 2's 16 year old son on the outside; but yeah, we are a bit crazy that way [besides the fandom is kinda small and recluded that way; it seems to bread a certain kind of insanity. But so far I still enjoy that)
no subject
I have never watched the show, but you make Prison Break sound disturbing. A pedophile paired with a teenager as an *OTP*? How does the OTP-inherent potential for "happily ever after" work with that one?!? I guess you could expand OTP to that characters are "right" for each other in mutual dysfunction, but even so... The obvious, if cynical obstacle to that OTP would be that if the first character is a true pedophile the almost grown teenager wouldn't work for him as a partner for long....
no subject
Considering that I never liked "Happily Ever After" the term "OTP" also never implies it to me. But rather means the relationship I consider the most interesting (and/or potentially most poignant).
For the record, I don't really consider the pedophile/teenager pairing my OTP. I just found it interesting that there lately has been quite a rise in stories about them. I'm guessing at least partly due to the fact that both the teenager and the evil White Supremacist are fan favourites. (again picture the evil snarky pedophile more along the lines of a Spike or Alex Krycek. Only, well, more evil)
(no subject)
no subject
Heh, not just you....
no subject
Also it helps that the main character has even Fox Mulder beat in sheer emo-angsting. I'm starting to believe they have some sort of contract clause that he has to cry his eyes out every second episode.
Plus it has Peter Stomare (aka Satan from Constantine aka quirky Russian guy from Armageddon aka Blonde from Fargo) and he pretty much brings the HoYay! wherever he walks.
For the record I'm still not recommending it because deep down I know it's bad and if you watched it you would mock it and it would break my wittle heart!
no subject
ROTFLOL
Your visual aid *does* make a good case for the HoYay! though.
no subject
And while I like brothercest pairings, I appreciate that the show has a variety of pairings that work. Such as Michael and his faithful puppy dog Puerto Rican cellmate (who openly joke about how often they "hang the sheet" and who generally behave like an old married couple), Michael and said pedophile who tried to make him his bitch in the second episode and hates him since he believes that Michael killed his favorite prison bitch, said pedophile and the ruthless mobster leader who have this whole "I'll kill you - No, I'll kill you first" kind of animosity thing going on. So, I like having more than one couple that potentially hits my kinks and that I can oogle.
Like:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/zsuness/122341.html#cutid1
http://www.livejournal.com/users/zsuness/117793.html#cutid1
http://www.livejournal.com/users/zsuness/124141.html#cutid1
no subject
And it makes sense as the line in buddy shows has long been, "He loved him like a brother" (with the fraternal-like quality of the relationship invoked to protect it from a reading of the guys as gay). I remember when we got that line on Hercules, and how I laughed and laughed, because in the stories, they were actually cousins.
On Supernatural, having people think they're gay becomes just another attempt at defusing the reading, but it doesn't work, in the end, because slashers don't care.
Though I think it does work for the general audience, who've long enjoyed the homosocial charge of buddy shows but who had, over the years, as actual gay men have started to appear on TV, perhaps grown a bit uncomfortable with the way that it looked queer.
I guess for me, the problem is still that, at least from a political and psychological standpoint, an incestuous relationship is the socially isolating relationship, and unhealthy because of that, even setting aside issues of power and the potential for coercion and exploitation that come with mixing roles. Whereas we could always assume that Starsky or Hutch (or the pair of them) could find a sympathetic someone with whom to talk about the relationship (even Huggy was that, in some stories), and we knew that there was a community "out" there, to support them if they wanted that, with incest? None of that is really the case.
And for me, that pretty much trumps everything. Though on The Professionals, there was that joke about them being a mobile ghetto, there was always Cowley, and there was always the larger society in which they lived.
But a relationship where you can't talk about it with anyone in your life, at all? And one where there is such a potential for fucked-up-edness? That doesn't strike me as at all sexy, and I don't care how hot the guys are.
no subject
Petra's entirely rational response: "GYAAAAAAAAAAH."
Te: "I know, but..."
And, see, that's the thing. It is horrifying. It's *not* sexy in and of itself -- unless you're kind of more of a pervert than usual (though not more of a pervert than me) -- but, well, it isn't supposed to be. (At least, not the way I try to write it.)
What's *supposed* to be sexy/gratifying/mmm-mmm-good? Are, well, the good parts. The relationship may be a staggeringly bad idea, but the alternative -- for those characters, at least -- is even worse. They do, in fact, suffer more in some ways by being in the relationship. It's just that they suffer much, much less in others.
For me, the appeal is in the... hmm. The triumph of an imperfect solution. It's not a relationship for healthy people, because healthy people understand they have options. It can *only* appeal to people who are at least a little sick in the head -- and who plan to stay that way forever and/or don't understand why they might not *want* to stay that way forever.
That said, there's still a cognitive leap of 'why' to be made which is a lot *easier* to make when the characters are particularly (and fascinatingly) fucked-up versions of Superman and Robin than it is if the characters are people who you *can't* see as being fundamentally attracted to each other and able to overcome the crushing societal taboos against the codependent wrong of the relationship for the sake of *not being alone*.
If you can, though... *shrug* The only job left -- if you're also a writer -- is sharing how that works in your head, as much as you can, with the readers.
no subject
Yes, okay--thank you for putting into words what I wanted to say, long ago!
I remember being very into Mulder/Krycek back in the day (and wasn't that just a healthy relationship? *g*), and it made sense to me because they were both so messed up (esp. Mulder, I think) that I couldn't really believe they were in any state to choose a healthier relationship, even should one present itself. As for isolation, it wasn't just the physical (though Mulder's being consigned to the basement was suggestive of that) but also that Mulder's job and beliefs isolated him, even from Scully. Supernatural, like Buffy has a setup in which the weirdness suspends all the ordinary rules of healthy relationships, setting the people who "know" apart from those who don't.
But with Numb3rs, I absolutely don't believe either of those criteria (isolation, fucked-up-edness) are met, outside of fanon. And when writers write him that way, it always feels like a wank-job, a angst-wallow (which can be fun) that has to sort of ignore all the healthy things we see Charlie engaged in.
Sure, his mom's dead, and he's still mourning her, and figuring out how to mourn her, but he's also holding down a remarkably conventional job where being socially and emotionally available makes you better at it, and he's supposed to be a good teacher, not someone who spends all his time alone in his library cubicle.
And he has emotional support, in his father (who is also mourning, albeit a bit differently). And, even more important, outside of his relationship with his brother, he spends most of his day in an apparently very warm, healthy, friendly, fun relationship with a colleague and friend, with whom he does ordinary geeky things like build robots that pull cars. In fact, as much as his intellect may set him apart from the masses of people outside the university, he's not the only genius for miles, nor the only mathematician. He belongs to clubs and goes to conferences and hangs out playing scrabble with Dad and flirts with his mentee. And the guy with whom Charlie's slashed--his brother--isn't even someone he's forced to spend time with, or trapped with. There are options and he takes them. So....
In Supernatural we see 2 men in a car completely, utterly
</i>
Yes, okay--thank you for putting into words what I wanted to say, long ago!
I remember being very into Mulder/Krycek back in the day (and wasn't <i>that</i> just a healthy relationship? *g*), and it made sense to me because they were both so messed up (esp. Mulder, I think) that I couldn't really believe they were in any state to choose a <i>healthier</i> relationship, even should one present itself. As for isolation, it wasn't just the physical (though Mulder's being consigned to the basement was suggestive of that) but also that Mulder's job and beliefs isolated him, even from Scully. <i>Supernatural</i>, like <i>Buffy</i> has a setup in which the weirdness suspends all the ordinary rules of healthy relationships, setting the people who "know" apart from those who don't.
But with <i>Numb3rs</i>, I absolutely don't believe either of those criteria (isolation, fucked-up-edness) are met, outside of fanon. And when writers write him that way, it always feels like a wank-job, a angst-wallow (which can be fun) that has to sort of ignore all the healthy things we see Charlie engaged in.
Sure, his mom's dead, and he's still mourning her, and figuring out <i>how</i> to mourn her, but he's also holding down a remarkably conventional job where being socially and emotionally available makes you better at it, and he's supposed to be a <i>good</i> teacher, not someone who spends all his time alone in his library cubicle.
And he has emotional support, in his father (who is also mourning, albeit a bit differently). And, even more important, outside of his relationship with his brother, he spends most of his day in an apparently very warm, healthy, friendly, fun relationship with a colleague and friend, with whom he does ordinary geeky things like build robots that pull cars. In fact, as much as his intellect may set him apart from the masses of people outside the university, he's not the only genius for miles, nor the only mathematician. He belongs to clubs and goes to conferences and hangs out playing scrabble with Dad and flirts with his mentee. And the guy with whom Charlie's slashed--his brother--isn't even someone he's forced to spend time with, or trapped with. There are options and he <i>takes</i> them. So....
In <i>Supernatural</i> we see 2 men in a car completely, utterly <alone</i> (with each other). Sam and Dean have conviently had all family members die off or disappear, including the pesky girlfriend. And they have (strangely, considering that Sam is a seemingly sane person who got a college degree) no friends outside of each other.
And in taking to the road, they're choosing to further isolate themselves, so that any relationships they form with people they encounter are bound to be short-lived. Again, not healthy, but it does make for a more convincing incest setup in those terms. Though I still think that Sam, having *had* a successful relationship with a girlfriend, and having gotten a college degree, seems a bit too emotionally stable and, well, <i>normal</i>. He's just not Batman, y'know? I can't quite see him being as <i>resigned</i> to the "It's just you and me forever" thing, as Dean seems to be. Dean, I think, wants to be <i>Batman</i> (or James Dean, with little brother as his Sal.)
no subject
Well, Sam has friends who ask after him and with whom he stays in contact via email and such, we see this in the episode with the Shapeshifter, where he ends up helping one of his friends who was falsely arrested because that shapeshifter thing murdered his girlfriend wearing his face. Dean doesn't want to go just to help Sam's friend, because initially it's not clear that it's a supernatural thing, but Sam insists. So he tries to keep in contact with his friends, he just kind of edits "monster hunting" to "roadtrip with my brother" when he talks about what he's doing.
I agree with you on the incest fic in Numb3rs though. In Numb3rs I have an even harder time to buy brothercest than in Supernatural. I mean, they really don't come across as a dysfunctional family to me. And well, their lives are just quite normal too, and not in the creepy horror film way, where beneath the normal lurk all kinds of things either.