about Supernatural fanfic...

[ratcreature]

I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.

It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?

Comments

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

I share your puzzlement. Not only can't I really see any physical attraction in canon (esp. one that wouldn't be overcome by the strong incest taboo in our culture--and these are not boys who lack acculturation. Just look at that car!) And really, aside from the fact that they *are* brothers and have chosen to work together, nothing about them suggests to me that they'd voluntarily spend any time together if they *weren't* brothers.

And, as time passes and I spend more time thinking about incest slash, I'm more and more feeling a little uncomfortable at the idea that the incest taboo has become just another barrier between Romeo and Juliet, because it feels like there's some sort of sublimation of something (not incest, but just... it's as if we've convinced ourselves that it's just too easy for two men to find lasting happiness in bed with each other these days, and I'm not at all convinced the Berlin Wall has fallen on that one.

[ratcreature]

Reassuring to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't see the slash potential. *g* For me they seem even more unlikely than some of the other more popular incest pairings, like for example when I squint can sort of see the Weasley twins fooling around with each other as teenagers, seeing how they're exactly the same age, though it's harder to imagine any sort long term arrangement between them once they're grown up, unless they share they girlfriends in a foursome or something like that. But Sam is a couple of years younger than Dean in addition to being his brother, which makes a huge difference for kids and teenagers, so unless the author proposes that Dean was molesting his kid brother, there certainly wasn't anything between them then, no matter that their family was moving around a lot hunting monsters, and they maybe lacked other friends or whatever childhood issues authors may bring up. Then Sam left for college, and it to me it seems more that they have to get used to each other again.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

For me, it's that I see the same kind of cues I'd see as slashy if they weren't brothers, if it were just a ghost-hunting buddy road trip of a show, and that in the context of the show, the only other person they have to rely on is the other man. They're isolated, no matter how well they get along in society, they save each others lives all the time -- from the very beginning, Dean was told to take care of his little brother. And from what we've had so far, their entire childhood was spent this way, on the hunt with their father, moving from place to place, family first and foremost -- until Sam broke away and tried to be "normal," and look how that worked out...

I do think that there has to be a willingness to buy the possibility that there is attraction; I think it's much like sexualized, erotic non-con, in that in real life people acknowledge that there are barriers and probabilities that we're willing to suspend in a fictional eroticized setting. If both guys weren't exceptionally hot, slash probably wouldn't predominate -- and I think you're right, it does, and most of it is REALLY REALLY BAD (really bad), exactly for the reasons you note: I'm inclined to read it as incestuous, but I still need a certain level of plausibility within a story that shows me where it's coming from.

But for me, it does come from that standing together against evil, isolated from the rest of society in a rather "unnatural" way, with a father who (one could speculate) was so focused on chasing the monsters and trying to find out what killed his wife that the boys only had each other to turn to.

That's why I do see and enjoy the brother slash in Supernatural, but I don't in Numb3rs. I see the possibility of them being fucked-up and outside the mainstream enough in the former, but in the latter, even though there are tensions between the brothers, and if they weren't brothers, I would see it as slashy, their interactions are just too normal, and the family situation too essentially healthy, for me to buy that they're fucking each other, the way I'm willing to buy it for the Winchesters.

[ratcreature]

I think I have hard time to make the step how a weird, isolated childhood leads to them being fucked-up in ways that eliminate not just the society's incest taboo as some outside norm that they just don't apply to them, but somehow creates sexual attraction. Especially since Sam is a few years younger than Dean, and that age difference would be quite significant for kids and teenagers, even if they were forced by circumstances to spend a lot of time with each other rather than friends or age mates. If they were just a year apart I could maybe see them fooling around with each other as kids and experimenting with each other more easily, seeing how removed they could have been from peers, and then I could maybe see the incest more easily between them as adults as well, I don't know.

I mean, I'm willing to be convinced by a good author, but it needs quite a few additional steps from what I see on screen. Yet somehow the Sam/Dean I skimmed read as if it already expected the reader to have made those steps in their head, kind of like some Snape/Harry fic is after years of fanfic and stories building this pairing from "unlikely" to one of the common pairings in HP fandom, but seeing how new the whole show still is, it's not like there's years of preparatory fanwork that made those tiny, incremental steps to make the pairing plausible I can fall back on to read stories which assume the pairing as self-evident.

[medie]

I've been leaning toward trying to get my hands on the episodes to see them but having taken a glance at the Supernatural fandom I'm not sure I want to get involved because I just don't ever think that incest should fall into 'shippiness' and the idea that it does squicks me out majorly. I avoid it in Firefly too. Part of me can see how people can go there because the actors are *NOT* related but...the concept of it...incest isn't something that should be played for hot or for laughs or for 'ship. It can be a very devastating thing or, in best case scenario, extremely screwed up. It's not...for teh hot y'know?

[ratcreature]

Well, while fictional incest doesn't work as a *kink* for me, it doesn't really squick me either, at least not if it isn't adult/child at the same time, and I have a number of kinks myself that really work for me in fiction, but are majorly screwed up, like I read rape, slavery and torture stories because the right kind can turn me on, so I'm not really in a position to say incest shouldn't be used for kink without being really hypocritical.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

First and foremost, I really adore you because you're one of the few people I know who would do a post along the lines of "This makes no sense to me and bores me and also makes no sense! ... please come explain it to me! WHERE IS THE META?!"

*ehehehe* I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to ship_manifesto. I have heart. :D

Anyway, I'm not in the fandom and I haven't seen the show. I have, however, been tracking reactions to it in my usual obsessive fanthropology way. A lot of it seems to be what elynross describes above -- "if they weren't brothers, I would've been slashing them from the word go just based on the facts of their relationship/how they interact with each other," combined with "I suppose it's possible that non-incestuous brothers behave that way with each other, but it's pretty far outside my experience for normal sibling behavior," combined with the more specific "do the actors know they're supposed to be playing *brothers*?" factor.

I call the last one the River/Simon option, really, because while I *have* talked to some people who saw nothing remotely suspect/'suspect' in the actors' body language toward each other, they were really profoundly -- and intriguingly -- in the minority.

I also wonder if there might not be some aspects of "I slash for the revolution" going on. I mean, mostly I find the idea of being into slash for political reasons kind of... odd, but, then again...

In a world where the concept "buddy shows are kind of inherently gay" is mainstream enough for most people to get the primary joke of the recent of Starsky and Hutch film, I can't help but notice that the number of buddy shows available has... dwindled. While it's nice to get a few more m-f buddy shows, it's kind of...

Well, I was talking to liviapenn a few days ago about the recent explosion of brothercest across fandoms, and this is one of the things she talked about -- many of the shows which used to be all about 'buddies' are now all about 'brothers,' with nothing else about the relationship -- and the relationship's often desperate intensity -- changed.

I'm pretty sure that if I were truly *in* one of those fandoms -- I am, at best, peripheral to Numb3rs -- it's the sort of cynicism/political slashing which *would* affect how I went about things. Sort of a, "so you don't want me to slash your show, eh? BITE ME."

Especially if, well, I already thought the relationship *was* (at least a little) slashy.

[ratcreature]

I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to ship_manifesto

Yeah, absolutely. In my mind posting how one doesn't get a ship or something like that without first trying to find meta about it in the well-known multi-fandom / fandom-pimping places at least is kind of like inviting a "read the fucking manual" response, you know? It's not like I do indepth research or anything before posting about a corner of fandom I'm not familiar with, but more like first trying to find the FAQs and such, because who wants to be the obnoxious newbie who posts the umpteenth fic search request to the fiction only list? *g*

Your point about the decline of the "buddies" concept on tv, and how it's replaced with brothers is interesting. I can see brothercest as a meta response to that, but meta and production explanations don't tend to extend well for me when I'm trying to understand the source internally. Even with obvious production constraints or continuity errors when they just missed something, I'm always happier to find an explanation (even a convoluted one) that works fully on the fictional level.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

many of the shows which used to be all about 'buddies' are now all about 'brothers,' with nothing else about the relationship -- and the relationship's often desperate intensity -- changed.

Good point and most likely precisely the reason.

If you think about it, it makes total sense from a writer POV. They can write characters in an intense relationship without creating a Smallville like "OMG, they are so gay, put them together!" reaction. And they actually have to work less hard to establish and explain why two characters would hang out with each other and stick with each other.

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

Way back when I posted asking much the same WTF question about Numb3rs (where I fell in love with Larry/Charlie (who are definitely buddies) only to discover the fandom was incest-happy and thought it was just strange to pair Charlie up with a man older than him who wasn't his brother), I also noticed that canonical trend toward brother shows.

And it makes sense as the line in buddy shows has long been, "He loved him like a brother" (with the fraternal-like quality of the relationship invoked to protect it from a reading of the guys as gay). I remember when we got that line on Hercules, and how I laughed and laughed, because in the stories, they were actually cousins.

On Supernatural, having people think they're gay becomes just another attempt at defusing the reading, but it doesn't work, in the end, because slashers don't care.

Though I think it does work for the general audience, who've long enjoyed the homosocial charge of buddy shows but who had, over the years, as actual gay men have started to appear on TV, perhaps grown a bit uncomfortable with the way that it looked queer.

I guess for me, the problem is still that, at least from a political and psychological standpoint, an incestuous relationship is the socially isolating relationship, and unhealthy because of that, even setting aside issues of power and the potential for coercion and exploitation that come with mixing roles. Whereas we could always assume that Starsky or Hutch (or the pair of them) could find a sympathetic someone with whom to talk about the relationship (even Huggy was that, in some stories), and we knew that there was a community "out" there, to support them if they wanted that, with incest? None of that is really the case.

And for me, that pretty much trumps everything. Though on The Professionals, there was that joke about them being a mobile ghetto, there was always Cowley, and there was always the larger society in which they lived.

But a relationship where you can't talk about it with anyone in your life, at all? And one where there is such a potential for fucked-up-edness? That doesn't strike me as at all sexy, and I don't care how hot the guys are.

[pocketmouse]

I like the boycest, but that's because I'm shallow.
What I would love to see dealt with, fic-wise, is the lore surrounding incest. It plays a strong role in a lot of myths, and I would love to see someone tie in some of that mythology into a slash story, either as a good thing or a bad thing. (bad thing, bad thing!)

[ratcreature]

I understand shallow. I mean who doesn't like eyecandy and such? ;)

And I agree that that would be a cool idea, to somehow integrate an incest plot with the series' supernatural theme.

[amberlynne.livejournal.com]

You know, I can't even explain it to you. Normally, I would not enjoy anything involving incest. There is something about this show that erases that barrier for me. I don't know if it's because they are so hot or what. I honestly don't *want* to find it hot because, really, it's squicky. But I can't seem to help myself. Something about the show adds up to it working for me.

I do agree with a lot of what elynross said. They just grew up so strangely and have had to rely soley on each other for so long, it doesn't seem like that big of a step for them. And they are well aware of how fucked up it is which I think adds to my ability to buy it. If it was something they just sort of fell into and were like "fuck it, who cares if we are brothers!" I don't think I would find it as interesting. There is just so much messed up angst and hotness on their little road trip that it just works.

That probably doesn't help at all. But I thought it might be helpful to know that even someone *involved* in the fandom doesn't quite get it either. ;)

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*pops back in* Is it at all like Lost Boys? I mean, that movie was just... well. Michael and Sammy! You've got the bizarre insular lifestyle -- with childhood trauma -- which keeps them apart, the plot further pushes them away from mainstream society, the actors were all *over* each other in a way which would make freaking comics!Dick say "hey, kinda touchy, don't you think?," and there were lots of little moments in the writing like, oh, say,

"Sammy, I *need* you!"

The bulb lights up when I flick the switch.

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

Everything between them plays out as intense and emotional, they would die for each other, they have insane chemistry, they are both taboo-breakingly hot, there is some incredible undercurrent you can feel relating to their history, and also. They just do all the things that provoke me to slash in other fandoms.
Themes of mutual sacrifice and tangled emotions *get* me on a "well, it could be like *this*" level. Sex would explain some of the undercurrents, and imagining it? Zaps me on both physical and emotional levels. The mental gets pretty engaged too, because they are smart and have mysteries to solve together.

Re: The bulb lights up when I flick the switch.

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

It totally helps that they wrestle each other to the floor in the first few minutes of the pilot, canonically have "issues" they're not copping to, and get mistaken for a gay couple twice in the same episode :D

But really, they just ping for me. Hard. Hard enough to write them, and I don't write for nearly as many fandoms as I read, not even half. I've tried to explain it and just got thoroughly worn out in the attempt and it's a bad time of the month for me to attempt anything requiring thought anyway and in the end all I can come up with is, I see it and I like it. I don't insist that it's there, in the way I've become convinced Alan Shore has deep unrequited love for Denny Crane, but I get enough on the screen that in my head, Sam and Dean are so doing it. Or were. Or could. Because I have a number of Sam'n'Deans in my head, as so often happens.

(BTW, Rat Creature, Te already mentioned this but I wanted to second it, bless you for asking this question without somehow implying pathology in us 'cest readers :))

[ficbyzee.livejournal.com]

To me, it's that Sam/Dean really makes *sense* in the Supernatural universe. They are about as far away from 'normal' as it's possible to be without having superpowers, and right now *all they have* is each other. They are not going to be able to find a nice girl or boy to settle down with that will be able to understand them or what they do. And the relationship between them is canonically complicated enough that it doesn't seem like a huge leap to me to add in a bit of lust to that equation.

Also, hot *damn* do I see the UST. I see the eyefucks, I see Dean slapping Sam's ass *in canon,* I hear the way that Dean says 'Sammy!' when he thinks Sam's going to die, and my brain goes 'they're *so* fucking.'

Hope this helps!

[ratcreature]

They are not going to be able to find a nice girl or boy to settle down with that will be able to understand them or what they do.

Heh, now I'm imagining this PWP kind of thing where they both pick up women in bars from time to time, then one evening it ends with both of them finding some prospect to get laid at the same time, they all end up in their motel room for a foursome or something, only for Sam and Dean to find out during that that they can bring each other off too, and they sort of just stick with that just for convenience sake, because it's less effort, and also 100% less chance that the woman turns out to be some dangerous freaky supernatural entity...

[cccarioca.livejournal.com]

Here by way of Te. I think the icon makes it quite clear where I stand in this debate. I'm all sleepy and stuff but I'll try to be articulate. =)

When I first watched the show, aside from the hotness of the characters, what struck me was how warped they both were.

To use a DC frame of reference, they're Robins. The day their mother died, they also kind of lost their father to his quest. So they ended up somewhat-orphans following an unhinged leader in a battle they can't win against the forces of darkness. They do a lot of good, but they kissed normal goodbye a long time ago.

I can't see any siblincest happening between them as they grew up (other than the circle-jerk kind, and even that isn't much), however I can easily believe there would be some hero worship. Again, maybe if you look at it with Dick and Tim in mind, maybe it will make more sense.

John Winchester comes off as badly damaged and I strongly suspect that Sam got all the affection a kid needs from his brother. Many little things in the show have comforted me in this belief. Hero worship could easily lead to a kind of crush that Sam repressed, especially given how insular their childhood was.

When your father is a drifter who lives off credit card scams and hunts monsters, not only do you end with little respect for society's rules, but it also makes it kind of hard to open up to people outside your family. Even Jessica, who was supposedly the love of Sam's life, barely knew anything about him.

When they team up again, it's been four years. And it's pretty obvious that they may not know each other anymore, but they still feel very strongly about each other.

In fact, I think what generates so much brothercest between the two (aside from Teh Pretty) is how passionately they feel about each other. One second they're all "I love you and I'd die for you", the next Sam is shooting Dean. That kind of passion is not at all sibling-like.

There's also the comfort angle. These guys are completely alone. Having only each other, I can easily see how desperation would drive them to ignore some taboos.

I don't think their love must always express itself sexually, in fact, in the two fics I wrote for this fandom, it doesn't always (and frankly, my fifth scenario in Five things that never happened to Dean Winchester makes incest seem almost healthy by comparison), but it is a fundamental element of their relationship.

P.S.: Te, Dean=Dick and Sam=Tim. Do you see the Robincest Wincest now? =)

[ratcreature]

Thanks for the explanation, your parallels to the Batverse and Dick and Tim help somewhat.

My mental stumbling block with Sam and Dean compared to Dick and Tim is that in the case of the former they have really known each other as brothers all their life and grown up together, and even though their age difference is not that large, considering their father and his focus on monster hunting Dean may have well been Sam's primary care giver and literally changed his nappies. I think it's just harder to imagine someone you were that close to and intimate with in a non-sexual way all your life as sexual, in my mind there has to be a major transition somewhere for that to happen.

Dick and Tim have grown to see each other as brothers, and are warped by Batman's quest, like Sam and Dean are by their father's hunt, but they met later in their lives. That makes it easier for me to believe they may be attracted to each other, especially since you could interpret Tim's stalkerish behavior before seeking Dick out as a sign of his first major crush, that just might not go away when the sibling relationship develops afterwards.

[dryad-duinath.livejournal.com]

I just sorta feel the love they have for each other, and translate it to what it probably wasn't meant to be. Plus, they're all the other has.

[halfshellvenus.livejournal.com]

For Supernatural, I could claim that I got drawn into it by other writers. Several of them, especially gravi_girl123's stuff that I first read on FF.net, really sold the intertwining relationship of ache, longing, and bonding through their isolated life that has gone on for so long. To me, it just makes sense, and there is so much tension and deep feeling that is evident that it flies off the screen.

For Prison Break, I initiated it. Perhaps I was de-squicked by the wonderful Hector/Paris work that writers such as montmorency do.

But in any case, the absolute drive the younger brother has toward sacrificing himself (his body, his innocence, his soul) over his older brother was so unexplained by the show that the idea of him being in love with his brother was one of the most compelling arguments I could make for it. The Prettiness did not hurt.

For both these fandoms, I felt compelled to wade in when there was a lack of background or depth to the characterization compared to the degress of emotion shown. I don't for instance write House M.D. fic because 1)I'm very satisfied with the job the show is doing of it, and 2)Other writers do it so well and especially tackle that tricky, snarky dialogue.

Just one woman's explanation. But if you don't see it, you don't. And that's to be expected. I never got the Mulder/Scully thing, myself.

[ratcreature]

For me I think there's a difference between not getting a pairing in the sense that it doesn't do much for me and I don't get the attraction, but I don't have an especially hard time to see how it could work with the characters, e.g. Mulder/Krycek in general and to some extent Mulder/Scully in the XF were like that for me, and not getting a pairing in the sense that I do see the attraction it has for me as a reader, but have a harder time to see how the characters would get there, which is the case for me with Sam/Dean.

I mean, for me to like a pairing I don't have to see it in the source itself, or even see a strong possibility for it in the source, because my natural inclination is to be a gen fan, in that I don't see subtext through slash (or het) UST goggles. In fanfic I tend to like pairings for their dynamic that somehow appeals to me, not for what I think is a the most likely thing in canon, but I still can only go there if either the story itself or some kind of accumulated background provided by meta, fanon or previous fanfic makes it plausible for me.

[cocombat.livejournal.com]

So...

As to why the Incest in fanfiction *ever*:

Here's one theory:
That it's not just me, but that a lot of slashers actually *like* the fucked up relationship. The one that can't possibly work, and probably also has all kind of dark undertones.
OTP is not necessarily about the healthy relationship or the one that's not going to socially isolate you.
E.g. Smallville's 1st season Lex/Clark?
I mean, maybe not everyone was woobie-ing about how sweet they were together, and some were actually thinking the dynamic was a little fucked.
Billionaire and 15 year old, in a gay male relationship.
Oh yeah. Like that's gonna be accepted.
Not.
And uh. Exact same text for Batman/Any!Robin. With added 'father' dynamic. Lovely.
Mulder/Krycek, again *not* healthy.
Not to mention, Te has led me down a rabbit-hole with Superman/Superboy & Superman/Tim, that just has me quivering in a corner with the fear. I mean, seeing the S symbol now? Gonna make me scream like a little kid.

But damn, she makes me like it. Why?
*grasps*

I guess I'm just an angst-whore. I hate dysfunctional relationships in real life, but in fiction?
It's definately more interesting. Because it's not *easy*.

I'm also only just reluctantly coming to grips that maybe, just maybe, I actually (sometimes) find those fucked-up guilty dynamics kinda, hot. Sometimes.
(Ouchy for the number of minimising termsI put in there...).
It's... if they feel *that* guilty about it, and are doing it anyway? Yeah.
Or it's just emotional S&M.
*shrug*

This does lead me to clarify that 'cest where it isn't acknowledged to be fairly fucked up? I tend to think of as bad fic.
(except when it's a Constantine crossover with a psychic bro! - http://www.livejournal.com/users/cccarioca/33090.html - they can be happy)

[ratcreature]

I totally agree that a twisted and dysfunctional relationship in fiction does not mean it's squicky or unattractive for the reader, I know for me it isn't, it's just that the author still has to make me believe the level of warped she goes for in a story. I can definitely see the attractiveness of Sam/Dean (I mean, duh, *g*), even though my mind doesn't go there from watching the show itself. I think what puzzled me a bit is how common it is in fanfic, like, I just saw some Supernatural rec post, and the reccer warned that she was *not* reccing incest stories, and... that's just weird, you know?

I think in SV a big factor for why so many didn't write it as more warped might have been that the actors weren't the age of the characters but rather older, so the visuals you got on tv were quite incongruous with the fictional reality in a way.

[cocombat.livejournal.com]

As to why the Incest on the show?:

Most of the time, I actually think the actors hit the mark on the 'just brothers' vibe (huh, now that someone else mentions it, yeah - *waay* more platonic than River & Simon), so there's the possibility I AU some moments just to get something to *work* with.

1. The actors are pretty, look completely unrelated, and people have gotten used to slashing boys. :P

Personal variation: the actors are pretty, and it's one of the few slash pairings I'd actually like to be in a *threesome* with.

2. They are the *only* main characters. There is no one around to slash or het them *with* other than the weekly one shot characters or original characters. The only other reoccuring characters mentioned are - their Dead mother, Sam's Dead girlfriend, and their Dad. Sam & Dead!Girlfriend, is less scary than the alternatives...

3. And now we're getting into their fucked up psychology...
They apparently moved around a lot, and had to lie to people about what their dad and they actually did, as kids, giving the impression that they were each other's only friends. Dean has said he basically has *no* friends, or outside relationships, you get the impression he's never had a serious romantic relationship either, as opposed to many many one night stands.

4. Sam keeps bitching about how abnormal their childhood was, and how he just wants to be *normal*, and doesn't want to be a hunter, waagh, waagh, waagh, but many twisted minded people have happily taken that and run with it as Sam & Dean were maybe a little involved as kids, and that's part of what freaked Sam out about their childhood.

5. There's the strong implication that there's either something about the Winchesters in general, or just Sammy in particular, that the women (or people?) they love, will die burning on the ceiling. You can see how at least a couple of those interpretations might lead to them isolating themselves off from any other characters.

Ah!
Reason 2. *b*,
*The* most popular one shot character so far? The psychic shapeshifter that tied up Sam and looked like Dean. Which is still all kinds of 'cest. Actually, I'd guess that maybe up to a quarter of the SPN slash fic has been derived from just that episode.

Really minor reasons, all bunched together:
Dean calls Sam *Sammy*. This - http://teland.com/lb.html has kinked me for 'Sammy' incest, for good.
They snark. Lots. It's cute. ("Jerk." "Bitch.")
Pilot, the first thing they do is fight. Rolling round on the floor. It's hot. But badly lit. (Hey, Supernatural producers? If you love me, you will give me more sparring. Properly lit sparring. I'll think it's hot, fanboys will think it's cool. It's totally win=win.)
It was a joke, but other characters have mistaken them for a gay couple. Twice. (Bugs)



Recs for Supernatural:
Stone_Princess has some good recs - http://www.livejournal.com/users/stone_princess/tag/fic+recs+spn

For stuff that actually give background to slashyness, I like:
Yesterday is the Same as Today, but Already Over
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gravi_girl123/91201.html
also An Honest Mistake, and It’s Hard Not to Notice by same author.

Wednesday’s Child
http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/61879.html
(underaged - and this story is really just about repercussions thereof)

And uh... there's a fic that I *think* might be relevent, but I can't remember what it's called, but it has a line about "taking it like a man" and that that's one of two thoughts that will fuck him up later (Dean).
?

[ratcreature]

Thanks for the recs, I'll check those out.

[cocombat.livejournal.com]

The feasibility of the Incest dynamic in supernatural:

Especially since Sam is a few years younger than Dean, and that age difference would be quite significant for kids and teenagers, even if they were forced by circumstances to spend a lot of time with each other rather than friends or age mates. If they were just a year apart I could maybe see them fooling around with each other as kids and experimenting with each other more easily, seeing how removed they could have been from peers, and then I could maybe see the incest more easily between them as adults as well, I don't know.

Er,
I could summarise it as, I can see this. Or rather, I can see it really easily, because I've seen something really similar.
Warning: don't read the following if you think the explanation might freak you out (ie real life incest).


.
.
.


I actually know a couple of brother who are 3-4 years apart, weren't able to hang out with other kids outside school, so tended to spend all their time hanging out together, and - yeah. Incest. As soon as the older one figured out how to masturbate (11ish?), he immediately showed his younger brother, 'cause it was neat, right? And so to mutual masturbation, and then actual sex. At that age, the older one knew it was kinda wrong, but hadn't quite figured out how wrong, i.e. he thought it was about on par with doing it with guys, which he'd then been told wasn't *really* that bad. Anyway, by the time they were really old enough to figure out it *was* actually 'wrong', it seems it was something of a habit, and a way of getting off, and continued for about a decade. It was of course still fucked up, and towards the end, as the younger one would only fuck the older one, saying it was because the older one was 'gay' (he's actually bi, and heavily more interested in girls), and the younger one especially, seems more guilty or repressed about it.
Other than/despite that, they're highly competitive, fairly similar, but still seem to get on ok and value each other's opinions.
*Shrug*

I can definately see many of the same events/dynamic with Sam/Dean, except that in most of the fanon, Dean is *very* much Sam's protector, which to me, would vastly increase the guilt and decrease the likelyhood of Dean letting anything like that happen, even if it did happen once, he'd probably feel too bad about it to continue. On the show conversely, they actually seem to relate on a more equal level.
Personally, that's why I see more of the fic having Sammy start it, because they see it as more wrong if Dean were to 'take advantage' of Sammy, and against his role of protector.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I notice that in a lot of incest fic that the big stepping stone is less "We can't do that because we are related", but "I can't do that with you because I'm supposed to protect you." from the older brother to the younger.

Which is why it's quite frequent to portray the younger brother one as the one who seduces/initiates. In Sam/Dean that is actually slightly watered down/not that one note because Dean comes across as fairly playful or open minded.

Not to mention that Dean comes across like he is still defering a lot of the "protector" responsibility, at least theoretically, to the father, even if he's absent. In Dean's mind the father is still the boss of them. Which means that in his mind the power imbalance might not be as big.

Though I'm guessing that the problem of this discussion with ratcreature is that she's asking "Why?" and we are mainly giving reasons for "Why not?" (at least characterisation-wise. Outside of that the main arguments are "Because we can." and "Because they are pretty.").

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I think the simple explanation is that the slashing impulse -- or, more broadly, the shipping impulse -- is very fundamental to most fans' experience of fannishness. Very few people get passionately fannish about a source where they don't ship anybody. And in Supernatural, Sam and Dean are all that's available for shipping (the taboo against original characters being even stronger than the taboo against incest). So the only two options for Supernatural fandom are to be Wincest-dominated or to be gen-dominated. And when was the last time you saw a gen-dominated fandom?

[ratcreature]

And when was the last time you saw a gen-dominated fandom?

Very true. *sigh* Which is kind of sad, considering how much I like gen. I'll read gen in all of my fandoms, and even prefer it to shipping in most (or would if there was enough gen writing). I think despite years in fandom it still hasn't sunk in fully how deeply pairing dominated fandom sometimes is.

OTOH, I think a lot of the time the emotional punch of gen stories in many genres isn't all that different from slash ones. I mean, I can't count the times when I couldn't quite remember whether a TS story was gen or slash (and I don't just this peculiar kind of "gen" TS story where they do "bonding" ritual stuff and such *g*), for example for h/c I've never seen that much difference. It's true that there's no real shipping alternative to the Wincest, but I don't know, considering that incest is harder to pull off without the characters becoming OOC, I had somehow expected gen with just a close, intense sibling relationship to be the main thing not incest stories (though I admit I haven't done any true statistical sampling, it may be my browsing is just skewed). True, in a fandom like TS there's maybe three times as many slash as gen judging from the main archives' sizes, but that slash relationship has no hurdles like age or family relation, and there's still plenty of gen.

BTW, I adore your icon. *g*

[mariko-neko.livejournal.com]

All I've got is that they're hot and I can be very, very shallow.

[ciaan]

Saw this post from rivkat's link a while ago, and thought you might like to know that there now is a ship_manifesto post for Dean/Sam. Saw that linked to by someone else yesterday, and it made me think of your comment about looking for one. Basically, I just thought, "Huh, that was fast."

[ciaan]

And of course when I say rivkat I actually mean thete1. Ah ha ha, yeah.