about Supernatural fanfic...

[ratcreature]

I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.

It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?

Comments

[cccarioca.livejournal.com]

Here by way of Te. I think the icon makes it quite clear where I stand in this debate. I'm all sleepy and stuff but I'll try to be articulate. =)

When I first watched the show, aside from the hotness of the characters, what struck me was how warped they both were.

To use a DC frame of reference, they're Robins. The day their mother died, they also kind of lost their father to his quest. So they ended up somewhat-orphans following an unhinged leader in a battle they can't win against the forces of darkness. They do a lot of good, but they kissed normal goodbye a long time ago.

I can't see any siblincest happening between them as they grew up (other than the circle-jerk kind, and even that isn't much), however I can easily believe there would be some hero worship. Again, maybe if you look at it with Dick and Tim in mind, maybe it will make more sense.

John Winchester comes off as badly damaged and I strongly suspect that Sam got all the affection a kid needs from his brother. Many little things in the show have comforted me in this belief. Hero worship could easily lead to a kind of crush that Sam repressed, especially given how insular their childhood was.

When your father is a drifter who lives off credit card scams and hunts monsters, not only do you end with little respect for society's rules, but it also makes it kind of hard to open up to people outside your family. Even Jessica, who was supposedly the love of Sam's life, barely knew anything about him.

When they team up again, it's been four years. And it's pretty obvious that they may not know each other anymore, but they still feel very strongly about each other.

In fact, I think what generates so much brothercest between the two (aside from Teh Pretty) is how passionately they feel about each other. One second they're all "I love you and I'd die for you", the next Sam is shooting Dean. That kind of passion is not at all sibling-like.

There's also the comfort angle. These guys are completely alone. Having only each other, I can easily see how desperation would drive them to ignore some taboos.

I don't think their love must always express itself sexually, in fact, in the two fics I wrote for this fandom, it doesn't always (and frankly, my fifth scenario in Five things that never happened to Dean Winchester makes incest seem almost healthy by comparison), but it is a fundamental element of their relationship.

P.S.: Te, Dean=Dick and Sam=Tim. Do you see the Robincest Wincest now? =)

[ratcreature]

Thanks for the explanation, your parallels to the Batverse and Dick and Tim help somewhat.

My mental stumbling block with Sam and Dean compared to Dick and Tim is that in the case of the former they have really known each other as brothers all their life and grown up together, and even though their age difference is not that large, considering their father and his focus on monster hunting Dean may have well been Sam's primary care giver and literally changed his nappies. I think it's just harder to imagine someone you were that close to and intimate with in a non-sexual way all your life as sexual, in my mind there has to be a major transition somewhere for that to happen.

Dick and Tim have grown to see each other as brothers, and are warped by Batman's quest, like Sam and Dean are by their father's hunt, but they met later in their lives. That makes it easier for me to believe they may be attracted to each other, especially since you could interpret Tim's stalkerish behavior before seeking Dick out as a sign of his first major crush, that just might not go away when the sibling relationship develops afterwards.

[cccarioca.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I love your robincreature icon so much.

*nods* Frankly, for me anyway, the hard sell is Dean. I can see the siblincest more easily from Sam. You make a valid argument about the growing up together. However a few things come into play:
1) - Dean is 4 years older than Sam. It's enough to put him in charge when Dad isn't around, but not enough to make him seem like a parent to Sam, even though he may have assumed some parental functions (or even most of them). There was never any doubt in Sam's or Dean's mind that John was the family head.
2) - As the show starts, they haven't seen each other in years and have done a lot of growing up on each side. They split as kids and suddenly find themselves facing each other as adults. This means they need to rediscover each other and thus they would start to see each other in new ways.
3) - Their relationship is extremely volatile, a mix of strong love and simmering anger. Everytime their feelings come close to the surface in an episode (like Skin or Asylum), the subtext skyrockets. Again, that passion is not at all sibling-like.
4) - Their precarious situation means they have no one to rely on but each other and their lives are emotionally exhausting. Throw in the fact that they don't even have to work at intimacy (which is huge deal to both of them), and the situation might mean they'd drift towards each other because it seems like there's no other option.

As always, slash is in the eye of the beholder. I'm willing to read almost any pairing as long as the writer is willing to put in the effort to sell me on said pairing. My point is that Wincest isn't everywhere, and it's certainly not shippy white-picket-fence material, but the potential for it is strong.

Throw in the fan motivation (Jensen and Jared are both charming and gorgeous) and lo! The Wincest fics are all over the place. =)

But if you wish to add to the fandom by writing us gen crackfic where Dean and Sam take on a sock monster at a haunted laundromat, go wild. I for one would love to read it. *grins*

[ratcreature]

I have to admit that the volatile, angry and sometimes violent behavior doesn't ping me as unlike siblings, but then I remember scenes between my older siblings when I was six or seven (they are a year apart from each other, but nine and ten years older than me) where they shouted at each other and my sister locked herself in the bathroom while my brother threw a knife a the closed door, but they were okay with each other not long afterwards and certainly didn't intend to injure each other for real or anything, and *I* wasn't bothered by their row at all, because it wasn't unusual that they were fighting. Though the friend I had over that afternoon was fairly traumatized I think, because over a decade later at a elementary school reunion she still remembered that when I had mostly forgotten. *g*

These days my siblings still get very angry at each other from time to time, they don't seem to get along that well with each other at all, whereas their relationship with me is much less fraught, and yet... the two chose to live next door to each other in the same house just different apartments and help each other out in small ways all the time.

I mean that Sam and Dean are angry at each other, and sometimes even violent with each other, while protective of each other at the same time resonates for me as exactly like siblings, you know? Most grown-ups repress the violent aspect of the anger eventually, but considering their monster-hunting occupation I'm not that surprised how it breaks through. I think family relationships can bear far more contradictory emotions than most other relationships.

Though I'm willing to be convinced of Wincest, too. I'll certainly keep my eye out for the definite, angsty incest epics that are sure to be written eventually as the series is on for longer and the fandom grows. *g*

[cccarioca.livejournal.com]

Not all siblings get along. That's true. And the arguments don't mean they don't love each other. Also true. But while my brother and younger sister keep blowing up at each other every so often (though fortunately, no bladed weapons were involved ... so far) yet are two peas in a pod the rest of the time, if they had even the slightest hint of Sam/Dean behavior, I'd be seriously freaking out.

The Sam/Dean relationship goes way beyond sibling arguments. It sounds like it at first, but before you know, this Flowers in the Attic vibe shows up. It's not to say they don't have the sibling thing going on too. But there's a second layer to their relationship that is not sibling-like at all ().

Plus the slash goggles tend to stay perched on my nose like many people do with their reading glasses, so when I watch the show and we occasionally get gems of dialogue like the one in the pilot ...

Dean: Does Jessica know the truth about you? I mean, does she know about the things you've done?
Sam: No, and she's not ever going to know.
Dean: Well, that's healthy. You can pretend all you want, Sammy, but sooner or later, you're gonna have to face up to who you really are.
Sam: And who's that?
Dean: One of us!
Sam: No! I'm not like you! This is not going to be my life!

... well, it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

I think the real problem of the fandom is that since the show involves two WB hotties, we got a lot of young HP-style fangirls who want the brocest without any of the build-up. And so they'll merrily write Dean/Sam with all the same psychological finesse they would put into writing Harry/Voldemort/GiantSquid.

Alas, it's a young fandom, so we'll need time until we get enough good fics. I don't tend to reread fics often so I rarely save links to the good one, but I'll try to see what I can find for you.

In the meantime, you might want to check this fic (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cccarioca/33090.html) out if you missed it when I posted it. I think the low Wincest content might be more your speed.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

Dean: Well, that's healthy. You can pretend all you want, Sammy, but sooner or later, you're gonna have to face up to who you really are.
Sam: And who's that?
Dean: One of us!
Sam: No! I'm not like you! This is not going to be my life!

... oh Christ. Timmish buttons being pressed... dark!Dick buttons... also pressed...

THIS IS NOT TO SAY YOU WIN.

This is just to say... yeah, okay, *I* get it now.

[cccarioca.livejournal.com]

*shines his nails on his jacket and then blows on them smugly* ^_^

[ficbyzee.livejournal.com]

I think the real problem of the fandom is that since the show involves two WB hotties, we got a lot of young HP-style fangirls who want the brocest without any of the build-up. And so they'll merrily write Dean/Sam with all the same psychological finesse they would put into writing Harry/Voldemort/GiantSquid.

*Yes,* exactly. Lots of fangirls seem to look at Sam/Dean the same way they would look at any other major slash 'ship, and just--no. Ick.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

But the question is how much that doesn't also hold true for normal slash. Like why can't two characters be friends, hug, argue or have an otherwise intense relationship without somebody standing up and calling it gay or slashy? After all I'm sure men are capable of being like that with other men without automatically fucking each other.

I think the reason we interpret everything as sexual is because we want to. We see the characters, we like them. We want to read about them in a sexual manner. So they need a partner. On Supernatural there *are* no other people. You are bound to come back to Wincest because they simply do not have a relevant emotional relationship with anybody else because there are no other permanent cast members. If you want to read about Sam and Dean in a sexual context you simply do not have much other options, especially if you are looking for something with any type of emotional resonance (as opposed to a one night stand with a guest starring character).

It's simply the most important and relevant relationship of the show and it kind of comes with the territory that people snazz it up with sex because porn is popular.

(BTW I completely agree with your point about how incest, while I think that it should be looked for like one would look for any slash pairing, should be written differently from "normal" pairings. After all, what's the fun of having a fucked up pairing if you are not going to write about the fucked up-ness?)