ratcreature | about Supernatural fanfic...

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about Supernatural fanfic...

I'm not feeling particularly fannish about Supernatural, but I have watched most episodes, thus while I was bored I looked around for Supernatural fanfic to read. I was mostly interested in gen, and while of course I knew that there's Sam/Dean slash I was actually surprised how common it is, from my first impressions even more widespread than gen (though I could be wrong about that). And I just don't get it. Personally I just have a hard time seeing Sam/Dean slash.

It's not that I'm particularly squicked by sibling incest, but the story has to somehow work harder to make that kind of thing work than other pairings. Not only because it has to make me buy that they would act on a sexual attraction despite incest taboos, that is similar in a way to other "relationship obstacles" in romance stories, but because it has to make me buy that there would be attraction in the first place. With most pairings I can buy that the author simply has a character feel attraction, inappropriate or not, and then the story goes from there, but for me (and I suspect most people) thinking about close family members with whom you grew up with, like your own siblings or parents and sex together is, well, sort of icky. Not just incestuous sex, but even the fact that your sibling or parent has sex with anyone, that's the kind of thing you don't want to contemplate in much detail. At least I don't, and I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I tried reading a couple of Sam/Dean stories, but they seemed to be much like regular slash in the way that it assumes that the reader buys the possibility for attraction between the guys in the first place. I don't quite get what makes this plausible for Sam/Dean shippers just from watching the series, and yet it seems very common. Which leaves me puzzled. I looked whether there was an essay on this pairing at

ship_manifesto to provide me with some insight, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. So does anyone know of any Supernatural meta that would explain to me where the Sam/Dean shippers are coming from?

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I share your puzzlement. Not only can't I really see any physical attraction in canon (esp. one that wouldn't be overcome by the strong incest taboo in our culture--and these are not boys who lack acculturation. Just look at that car!) And really, aside from the fact that they *are* brothers and have chosen to work together, nothing about them suggests to me that they'd voluntarily spend any time together if they *weren't* brothers.

And, as time passes and I spend more time thinking about incest slash, I'm more and more feeling a little uncomfortable at the idea that the incest taboo has become just another barrier between Romeo and Juliet, because it feels like there's some sort of sublimation of something (not incest, but just... it's as if we've convinced ourselves that it's just too easy for two men to find lasting happiness in bed with each other these days, and I'm not at all convinced the Berlin Wall has fallen on that one.

For me, it's that I see the same kind of cues I'd see as slashy if they weren't brothers, if it were just a ghost-hunting buddy road trip of a show, and that in the context of the show, the only other person they have to rely on is the other man. They're isolated, no matter how well they get along in society, they save each others lives all the time -- from the very beginning, Dean was told to take care of his little brother. And from what we've had so far, their entire childhood was spent this way, on the hunt with their father, moving from place to place, family first and foremost -- until Sam broke away and tried to be "normal," and look how that worked out...

I do think that there has to be a willingness to buy the possibility that there is attraction; I think it's much like sexualized, erotic non-con, in that in real life people acknowledge that there are barriers and probabilities that we're willing to suspend in a fictional eroticized setting. If both guys weren't exceptionally hot, slash probably wouldn't predominate -- and I think you're right, it does, and most of it is REALLY REALLY BAD (really bad), exactly for the reasons you note: I'm inclined to read it as incestuous, but I still need a certain level of plausibility within a story that shows me where it's coming from.

But for me, it does come from that standing together against evil, isolated from the rest of society in a rather "unnatural" way, with a father who (one could speculate) was so focused on chasing the monsters and trying to find out what killed his wife that the boys only had each other to turn to.

That's why I do see and enjoy the brother slash in Supernatural, but I don't in Numb3rs. I see the possibility of them being fucked-up and outside the mainstream enough in the former, but in the latter, even though there are tensions between the brothers, and if they weren't brothers, I would see it as slashy, their interactions are just too normal, and the family situation too essentially healthy, for me to buy that they're fucking each other, the way I'm willing to buy it for the Winchesters.

I've been leaning toward trying to get my hands on the episodes to see them but having taken a glance at the Supernatural fandom I'm not sure I want to get involved because I just don't ever think that incest should fall into 'shippiness' and the idea that it does squicks me out majorly. I avoid it in Firefly too. Part of me can see how people can go there because the actors are *NOT* related but...the concept of it...incest isn't something that should be played for hot or for laughs or for 'ship. It can be a very devastating thing or, in best case scenario, extremely screwed up. It's not...for teh hot y'know?

First and foremost, I really adore you because you're one of the few people I know who would do a post along the lines of "This makes no sense to me and bores me and also makes no sense! ... please come explain it to me! WHERE IS THE META?!"

*ehehehe* I tend to think fandom would be a happier place, in general, if more people's first response to bizarre-to-them 'shippy behavior is to go to

ship_manifesto. I have heart. :D

Anyway, I'm not in the fandom and I haven't seen the show. I have, however, been tracking reactions to it in my usual obsessive fanthropology way. A lot of it seems to be what

elynross describes above -- "if they weren't brothers, I would've been slashing them from the word go just based on the facts of their relationship/how they interact with each other," combined with "I suppose it's possible that non-incestuous brothers behave that way with each other, but it's pretty far outside my experience for normal sibling behavior," combined with the more specific "do the actors know they're supposed to be playing *brothers*?" factor.

I call the last one the River/Simon option, really, because while I *have* talked to some people who saw nothing remotely suspect/'suspect' in the actors' body language toward each other, they were really profoundly -- and intriguingly -- in the minority.

I also wonder if there might not be some aspects of "I slash for the revolution" going on. I mean, mostly I find the idea of being into slash for political reasons kind of... odd, but, then again...

In a world where the concept "buddy shows are kind of inherently gay" is mainstream enough for most people to get the primary joke of the recent of Starsky and Hutch film, I can't help but notice that the number of buddy shows available has... dwindled. While it's nice to get a few more m-f buddy shows, it's kind of...

Well, I was talking to

liviapenn a few days ago about the recent explosion of brothercest across fandoms, and this is one of the things she talked about -- many of the shows which used to be all about 'buddies' are now all about 'brothers,' with nothing else about the relationship -- and the relationship's often desperate intensity -- changed.

I'm pretty sure that if I were truly *in* one of those fandoms -- I am, at best, peripheral to Numb3rs -- it's the sort of cynicism/political slashing which *would* affect how I went about things. Sort of a, "so you don't want me to slash your show, eh? BITE ME."

Especially if, well, I already thought the relationship *was* (at least a little) slashy.

I like the boycest, but that's because I'm shallow.
What I would love to see dealt with, fic-wise, is the lore surrounding incest. It plays a strong role in a lot of myths, and I would love to see someone tie in some of that mythology into a slash story, either as a good thing or a bad thing. (bad thing, bad thing!)

You know, I can't even explain it to you. Normally, I would not enjoy anything involving incest. There is something about this show that erases that barrier for me. I don't know if it's because they are so hot or what. I honestly don't *want* to find it hot because, really, it's squicky. But I can't seem to help myself. Something about the show adds up to it working for me.

I do agree with a lot of what

elynross said. They just grew up so strangely and have had to rely soley on each other for so long, it doesn't seem like that big of a step for them. And they are well aware of how fucked up it is which I think adds to my ability to buy it. If it was something they just sort of fell into and were like "fuck it, who cares if we are brothers!" I don't think I would find it as interesting. There is just so much messed up angst and hotness on their little road trip that it just works.

That probably doesn't help at all. But I thought it might be helpful to know that even someone *involved* in the fandom doesn't quite get it either. ;)

Everything between them plays out as intense and emotional, they would die for each other, they have insane chemistry, they are both taboo-breakingly hot, there is some incredible undercurrent you can feel relating to their history, and also. They just do all the things that provoke me to slash in other fandoms.
Themes of mutual sacrifice and tangled emotions *get* me on a "well, it could be like *this*" level. Sex would explain some of the undercurrents, and imagining it? Zaps me on both physical and emotional levels. The mental gets pretty engaged too, because they are smart and have mysteries to solve together.

To me, it's that Sam/Dean really makes *sense* in the Supernatural universe. They are about as far away from 'normal' as it's possible to be without having superpowers, and right now *all they have* is each other. They are not going to be able to find a nice girl or boy to settle down with that will be able to understand them or what they do. And the relationship between them is canonically complicated enough that it doesn't seem like a huge leap to me to add in a bit of lust to that equation.

Also, hot *damn* do I see the UST. I see the eyefucks, I see Dean slapping Sam's ass *in canon,* I hear the way that Dean says 'Sammy!' when he thinks Sam's going to die, and my brain goes 'they're *so* fucking.'

Hope this helps!

Here by way of Te. I think the icon makes it quite clear where I stand in this debate. I'm all sleepy and stuff but I'll try to be articulate. =)

When I first watched the show, aside from the hotness of the characters, what struck me was how warped they both were.

To use a DC frame of reference, they're Robins. The day their mother died, they also kind of lost their father to his quest. So they ended up somewhat-orphans following an unhinged leader in a battle they can't win against the forces of darkness. They do a lot of good, but they kissed normal goodbye a long time ago.

I can't see any siblincest happening between them as they grew up (other than the circle-jerk kind, and even that isn't much), however I can easily believe there would be some hero worship. Again, maybe if you look at it with Dick and Tim in mind, maybe it will make more sense.

John Winchester comes off as badly damaged and I strongly suspect that Sam got all the affection a kid needs from his brother. Many little things in the show have comforted me in this belief. Hero worship could easily lead to a kind of crush that Sam repressed, especially given how insular their childhood was.

When your father is a drifter who lives off credit card scams and hunts monsters, not only do you end with little respect for society's rules, but it also makes it kind of hard to open up to people outside your family. Even Jessica, who was supposedly the love of Sam's life, barely knew anything about him.

When they team up again, it's been four years. And it's pretty obvious that they may not know each other anymore, but they still feel very strongly about each other.

In fact, I think what generates so much brothercest between the two (aside from Teh Pretty) is how passionately they feel about each other. One second they're all "I love you and I'd die for you", the next Sam is shooting Dean. That kind of passion is not at all sibling-like.

There's also the comfort angle. These guys are completely alone. Having only each other, I can easily see how desperation would drive them to ignore some taboos.

I don't think their love must always express itself sexually, in fact, in the two fics I wrote for this fandom, it doesn't always (and frankly, my fifth scenario in Five things that never happened to Dean Winchester makes incest seem almost healthy by comparison), but it is a fundamental element of their relationship.

P.S.: Te, Dean=Dick and Sam=Tim. Do you see the ~~Robincest~~ Wincest now? =)

I just sorta feel the love they have for each other, and translate it to what it probably wasn't meant to be. Plus, they're all the other has.

For Supernatural, I could claim that I got drawn into it by other writers. Several of them, especially

gravi_girl123's stuff that I first read on FF.net, really sold the intertwining relationship of ache, longing, and bonding through their isolated life that has gone on for so long. To me, it just makes sense, and there is so much tension and deep feeling that is evident that it flies off the screen.

For Prison Break, I initiated it. Perhaps I was de-squicked by the wonderful Hector/Paris work that writers such as

montmorency do.

But in any case, the absolute drive the younger brother has toward sacrificing himself (his body, his innocence, his soul) over his older brother was so unexplained by the show that the idea of him being in love with his brother was one of the most compelling arguments I could make for it. The Prettiness did not hurt.

For both these fandoms, I felt compelled to wade in when there was a lack of background or depth to the characterization compared to the degress of emotion shown. I don't for instance write House M.D. fic because 1)I'm very satisfied with the job the show is doing of it, and 2)Other writers do it so well and especially tackle that tricky, snarky dialogue.

Just one woman's explanation. But if you don't see it, you don't. And that's to be expected. I never got the Mulder/Scully thing, myself.

So...

As to why the Incest in fanfiction *ever*:

Here's one theory:
That it's not just me, but that a lot of slashers actually *like* the fucked up relationship. The one that can't possibly work, and probably also has all kind of dark undertones.
OTP is not necessarily about the healthy relationship or the one that's not going to socially isolate you.
E.g. Smallville's 1st season Lex/Clark?
I mean, maybe not everyone was woobie-ing about how sweet they were together, and some were actually thinking the dynamic was a little fucked.
Billionaire and 15 year old, in a gay male relationship.
Oh yeah. Like that's gonna be accepted.
Not.
And uh. Exact same text for Batman/Any!Robin. With added 'father' dynamic. Lovely.
Mulder/Krycek, again *not* healthy.
Not to mention, Te has led me down a rabbit-hole with Superman/Superboy & Superman/Tim, that just has me quivering in a corner with the fear. I mean, seeing the S symbol now? Gonna make me scream like a little kid.

But damn, she makes me like it. Why?
*grasps*

I guess I'm just an angst-whore. I hate dysfunctional relationships in real life, but in fiction?
It's definately more interesting. Because it's not *easy*.

I'm also only just reluctantly coming to grips that maybe, just maybe, I actually (sometimes) find those fucked-up guilty dynamics kinda, hot. Sometimes.
(Ouchy for the number of minimising termsI put in there...).
It's... if they feel *that* guilty about it, and are doing it anyway? Yeah.
Or it's just emotional S&M.
*shrug*

This does lead me to clarify that 'cest where it isn't acknowledged to be fairly fucked up? I tend to think of as bad fic.
(except when it's a Constantine crossover with a psychic bro! - http://www.livejournal.com/users/cccarioca/33090.html - they can be happy)

As to why the Incest on the show?:

Most of the time, I actually think the actors hit the mark on the 'just brothers' vibe (huh, now that someone else mentions it, yeah - *waay* more platonic than River & Simon), so there's the possibility I AU some moments just to get something to *work* with.

1. The actors are pretty, look completely unrelated, and people have gotten used to slashing boys. :P

Personal variation: the actors are pretty, and it's one of the few slash pairings I'd actually like to be in a *threesome* with.

2. They are the *only* main characters. There is no one around to slash or het them *with* other than the weekly one shot characters or original characters. The only other reoccuring characters mentioned are - their Dead mother, Sam's Dead girlfriend, and their Dad. Sam & Dead!Girlfriend, is less scary than the alternatives...

3. And now we're getting into their fucked up psychology...
They apparently moved around a lot, and had to lie to people about what their dad and they actually did, as kids, giving the impression that they were each other's only friends. Dean has said he basically has *no* friends, or outside relationships, you get the impression he's never had a serious romantic relationship either, as opposed to many many one night stands.

4. Sam keeps bitching about how abnormal their childhood was, and how he just wants to be *normal*, and doesn't want to be a hunter, waagh, waagh, waagh, but many twisted minded people have happily taken that and run with it as Sam & Dean were maybe a little involved as kids, and that's part of what freaked Sam out about their childhood.

5. There's the strong implication that there's either something about the Winchesters in general, or just Sammy in particular, that the women (or people?) they love, will die burning on the ceiling. You can see how at least a couple of those interpretations might lead to them isolating themselves off from any other characters.

Ah!
Reason 2. *b*,
*The* most popular one shot character so far? The psychic shapeshifter that tied up Sam and looked like Dean. Which is still all kinds of 'cest. Actually, I'd guess that maybe up to a quarter of the SPN slash fic has been derived from just that episode.

Really minor reasons, all bunched together:
Dean calls Sam *Sammy*. This - http://teland.com/lb.html has kinked me for 'Sammy' incest, for good.
They snark. Lots. It's cute. ("Jerk." "Bitch.")
Pilot, the first thing they do is fight. Rolling round on the floor. It's hot. But badly lit. (Hey, Supernatural producers? If you love me, you will give me more sparring. Properly lit sparring. I'll think it's hot, fanboys will think it's cool. It's totally win=win.)
It was a joke, but other characters have mistaken them for a gay couple. Twice. (Bugs)

Recs for Supernatural:
Stone_Princess has some good recs - http://www.livejournal.com/users/stone_princess/tag/fic+recs+spn

For stuff that actually give background to slashyness, I like:
Yesterday is the Same as Today, but Already Over
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gravi_girl123/91201.html
also An Honest Mistake, and It’s Hard Not to Notice by same author.

Wednesday’s Child
http://www.livejournal.com/users/deannaz/61879.html
(underaged - and this story is really just about repercussions thereof)

And uh... there's a fic that I *think* might be relevent, but I can't remember what it's called, but it has a line about "taking it like a man" and that that's one of two thoughts that will fuck him up later (Dean).
?

The feasibility of the Incest dynamic in supernatural:

Especially since Sam is a few years younger than Dean, and that age difference would be quite significant for kids and teenagers, even if they were forced by circumstances to spend a lot of time with each other rather than friends or age mates. If they were just a year apart I could maybe see them fooling around with each other as kids and experimenting with each other more easily, seeing how removed they could have been from peers, and then I could maybe see the incest more easily between them as adults as well, I don't know.

Er,
I could summarise it as, I can see this. Or rather, I can see it really easily, because I've seen something really similar.
Warning: don't read the following if you think the explanation might freak you out (ie real life incest).

.
.
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I actually know a couple of brother who are 3-4 years apart, weren't able to hang out with other kids outside school, so tended to spend all their time hanging out together, and - yeah. Incest. As soon as the older one figured out how to masturbate (11ish?), he immediately showed his younger brother, 'cause it was neat, right? And so to mutual masturbation, and then actual sex. At that age, the older one knew it was kinda wrong, but hadn't quite figured out how wrong, i.e. he thought it was about on par with doing it with guys, which he'd then been told wasn't *really* that bad. Anyway, by the time they were really old enough to figure out it *was* actually 'wrong', it seems it was something of a habit, and a way of getting off, and continued for about a decade. It was of course still fucked up, and towards the end, as the younger one would only fuck the older one, saying it was because the older one was 'gay' (he's actually bi, and heavily more interested in girls), and the younger one especially, seems more guilty or repressed about it.
Other than/despite that, they're highly competitive, fairly similar, but still seem to get on ok and value each other's opinions.
*Shrug*

I can definately see many of the same events/dynamic with Sam/Dean, except that in most of the fanon, Dean is *very* much Sam's protector, which to me, would vastly increase the guilt and decrease the likelyhood of Dean letting anything like that happen, even if it did happen once, he'd probably feel too bad about it to continue. On the show conversely, they actually seem to relate on a more equal level.
Personally, that's why I see more of the fic having Sammy start it, because they see it as more wrong if Dean were to 'take advantage' of Sammy, and against his role of protector.

I think the simple explanation is that the slashing impulse -- or, more broadly, the shipping impulse -- is very fundamental to most fans' experience of fannishness. Very few people get passionately fannish about a source where they don't ship anybody. And in Supernatural, Sam and Dean are all that's available for shipping (the taboo against original characters being even stronger than the taboo against incest). So the only two options for Supernatural fandom are to be Wincest-dominated or to be gen-dominated. And when was the last time you saw a gen-dominated fandom?

All I've got is that they're hot and I can be very, very shallow.

Saw this post from

rivkat's link a while ago, and thought you might like to know that there now is a

ship_manifesto post for Dean/Sam. Saw that linked to by someone else yesterday, and it made me think of your comment about looking for one. Basically, I just thought, "Huh, that was fast."

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