I didn't think I was particularly sensitive to epithets...

[ratcreature]

...but this historical m/m romance novel I'm reading (Best Laid Plaids by Ella Stainton) is driving me crazy. Between both of them referring to themselves and each other sometimes by first, sometimes by last name, and also by hair color, body size, age and occasionally nationality in a dizzying, randomized cycle, there are entirely too many things to refer to just two people.

It's really frustrating, because the sex scenes are decent otherwise, the paranormal plot so far is interesting, and the characters likeable, but this makes it nearly unreadable.

Comments

[mific]

Yeah, I really hate them, so I'd have back buttoned out after a page, probably!
A pity the writer didn't have (or listen to) a decent beta reader. The rules are different for profic than fanfic, so I guess you could let them know, and suggest they read something like https://fandom-grammar.livejournal.com/1062.html? Name consistency is also important - it needs to make sense in the context, I agree. Some advice might help any future books they write.

[ratcreature]

Considering it isn't self-published, there had to be an editor at some point who presumably was fine with this. It's mind boggling. I get that in these days publishers scrimp on editing and to some degree it's a taste, and I actually wouldn't have minded a couple. Like one character has red hair, the other likes so that he refers to them as "the ginger" isn't totally jarring if it was in moderation, but not this much. And the first name, last name mixing is bonkers. It's not situational or such. There are some sentences that use first name in one part, last in second half.

[lilacsigil]

Some authors seem to think that writing same-sex relationships is an exercise in pronoun avoidance!

[ratcreature]

Yes, this reached ridiculous levels as if it was a game of lava floor with pronouns. It's actually one of the few times I remember being put off epithets in otherwise competent writing. I'm not stringent about always hating every instance, sometimes they can work for description, and I won't notice, but it's very intrusive here.

It seems to be the author's first novel (unless she wrote under a different pseud before), so it might be inexperience? But you'd that with the first thing you sell you work extra hard, and would ask others, and I can't think how anyone could read this and not tell her to at least tone it down, and also to just stick to one name for a character per pov scene rather than using both first and last name separately.

[sealie]

my first thought was to look at the date of publication since using epithets is sort of old school but no it's a new book. I hope that it is not the start of a new trend!

Another new trend that boggles me is people posting fanfic and (gleefully) stating No beta; we die like men

[ratcreature]

I don't think it's a trend, this really stood out. This seems to be the author's first novel (unless she wrote under a different pseud before), so she might not have run into the whole epithet discussion? But honestly it's very intrusive here, not the odd use of a hair color to mix things up between names. I honestly can't imagine any beta reader not noticing it.

And the switching between first and last name in the same pov scene is plain confusing. Like "He kissed Doe, and John sighed." is not the way to go, even if the reader knows you are talking about a John Doe. I really hope the author improves and looses this habit.

With the fanfic posting and beta readers I think it's a pendulum swing type of thing. For a while the community norm seemed to move more and more towards requiring beta reading, and even shaming if people didn't. Then some reacted to that absolutism by pointing out that not using a beta doesn't necessarily mean you don't care, and also situational factors etc etc, and then that overshoots.

[mllesatine]

Regarding your last point, I agree 100%. I read an ongoing fanfic where the author stated that they weren't looking for critical responses ("a gentle reminder") and then commented on some person's rather harmless comment (the only ciritical thing was that the pacing was a bit rushed at the end) and told them again that they don't like to receive that kind of comment.
I don't read other people's comments and only checked out the comment section after the author stated that they don't want concrit and expected really negative things or some kind of infighting in the comments and there was nothing there.
The fic is in a small fandom and very popular. It has lots of kudos and a ton of comments. The author responds to all the gushing comments so positivity is still much appreciated. Kind of soured me on the author and the fic. *shrug*

[ratcreature]

I think it's fair for an author to say they aren't interested in concrit especially things that aren't easily fixed after posting like pacing (rather than fixing a typo or such).

I'm not especially into random internet audience offering me drawing tips I didn't ask for (unlike when posting wip trying to figure out a problem and asking), especially not when I might feel a bit down on myself already.

And the feedback etiquette for the "default" modus of engaging is quite different in different fandom corners. So it's helpful to be upfront. Otoh when an author is too particular or seems very easily offended they risk people just not saying anything beyond a kudo or a generic "I liked this" because just posting thoughts you had might seem risky, even if you don't mean it as something they ought to fix.

I think it's a bit of a shame that fandom currently has few reader centric spaces, that don't center around the author or are addressed to them. I enjoyed the mailing lists way back that were for fanfic talk among readers.

[mllesatine]

Oh I agree. If I see that an author doesn't want concrit I wouldn't dream of writing any but this author did not state upfront that they don't want it. Maybe it had already been discussed in the comments at some point but I'm not in the habit of reading those.

[ratcreature]

Could also have been on their profile somewhere as a blanket statement but I rarely look at those on AO3. But various transformative works policies wrt podfic also seem to end up there. Or in the middle of a long list of Tumblr style tags. Communicating feedback preferences is about as standardized as the preferences themselves i.e. not very.

[sealie]

Just to clarify, I think if a writer chooses to have a beta or not that is their business. I was perplexed at the ‘tone’ of tagging ‘no beta; we die like men!’ I am puzzled that stories are posted with no editing, weird grammar, no spell check and sometimes no formatting. It is a choice, and I believe that a writer can make and choose to post their stories in that manner. I get that fanfic is fun and doesn’t have to be betaed. Nor should a writer be subject to unwanted criticism (and notably in fandom it is rarely constructive or objective).

I will, however, press the back button on a fic that has egregious mistakes and has little or no formatting.

[ratcreature]

I certainly use "no beta" tags/notes as a data point when deciding whether to check something out too, along with the summary, author's note, tags etc.

It's just my guess that the tone of these notes intentionally highlighting the lack of a beta (rather than for example just not mentioning it either way) might be a reaction to having been scolded for not using betas in the past (whether personally or as a feeling of a general fandom mood that translated into feeling scolded) and pushing back against that. It's my impression that there's always a bit of a seesaw in what take on fanwriting is the most vocal in a fandom corner (a bit depending on BNFs and cliques popularity at a time).

[sealie]

As one who has also be scolded/patronised/insulted for not having a beta, I do know where you're coming from. Not having a beta doesn't mean that a story is inherently bad. I guess to a certain extent it speaks of joy, enthusiasm, rush to post and share and/or I'm doing this for fun it; shouldn't be a chore.

Fandom does chose its corners. It is nice, for example, to see Mary Sue themes being deconstructed and being seen as a positive, at the moment. I wonder where the seesaw will take it. Because you’re right there are a lot of seesaws.